[cargobeep]

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Matchpoints, both vulnerable. 2 of diamonds cut off. Both teams are playing SAYC.

What do you do?

[ahydra]

Open 4NT, if partner shows the CA we bid 7D, otherwise 6D. Easy.

The only problem is if partner shows 2 aces - in which case we either need a method to determine which, play it safe with 6D, or punt 7D based on the fact there's a 2/3 chance one of them is the CA.

ahydra

[PhilKing]

ahydra, on 2013-July-28, 15:52, said:

Open 4NT, if partner shows the CA we bid 7D, otherwise 6D. Easy.

The only problem is if partner shows 2 aces - in which case we either need a method to determine which, play it safe with 6D, or punt 7D based on the fact there's a 2/3 chance one of them is the CA.

ahydra

If partner has the major-suit aces you may still make on the wrong lead.

[Fluffy]

I pass, I don't follow rule of 15 so I am scared of helping them finding 4M.

[Cyberyeti]

This is one of the few hands where you can make partner's head explode as he wonders what to bid with 3 aces over 4N (and the answer usually isn't 7N if he has a void diamond).

4N is simplest, you can try to mastermind the auction so you can GSF in clubs then convert to diamonds, but not sure I'd really want to put partner to the test.

[ArtK78]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-28, 16:24, said:

This is one of the few hands where you can make partner's head explode as he wonders what to bid with 3 aces over 4N (and the answer usually isn't 7N if he has a void diamond).

4N is simplest, you can try to mastermind the auction so you can GSF in clubs then convert to diamonds, but not sure I'd really want to put partner to the test.

If partner has 3 aces, you will be OK unless partner is 0-1 in the minors.

[PhilKing]

How many people know what a 4NT opening means in SAYC?

[Cyberyeti]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-28, 16:28, said:

If partner has 3 aces, you will be OK unless partner is 0-1 in the minors.

Yes, but there are other hands where it won't, stiff spade and 12 solid diamonds for example.

[aguahombre]

Back to the long trick-taker 2♣ opening, with the 3 (any) rebid setting trump. Responder continues with cheapest bullet if she has one or more and cheapest NT with a guarded King, but no Ace. Asking bids follow. She either has the club Ace or she doesn't.

[Lord Molyb]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-28, 16:28, said:

If partner has 3 aces, you will be OK unless partner is 0-1 in the minors.

That actually doesn't seem too unlikely.

[Fluffy]

aguahombre, on 2013-July-28, 16:43, said:

Back to the long trick-taker 2♣ opening, with the 3 (any) rebid setting trump. Responder continues with cheapest bullet if she has one or more and cheapest NT with a guarded King, but no Ace. Asking bids follow. She either has the club Ace or she doesn't.

first time I hear of this treatment, perhaps it never crossed the Atlantic.

[ArtK78]

Lord Molyb, on 2013-July-29, 07:59, said:

That actually doesn't seem too unlikely.

I agree with the "0" part. but the "1"?

[ArtK78]

I don't think that a 4NT opening asking for specific aces is very common. I have never seen it, nor have I heard anyone mention it except once or twice in these Fora. It has never come up in any live bridge discussion that I have had.

On the other hand, I have heard of 4NT openings showing power, 4NT openings showing shape, and 4NT openings showing both power and shape (original Romex used a 4NT opening to show 1-1-6-5 or 1-1-5-6 with 2 losers).

[CamHenry]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-29, 09:01, said:

I don't think that a 4NT opening asking for specific aces is very common. I have never seen it, nor have I heard anyone mention it except once or twice in these Fora. It has never come up in any live bridge discussion that I have had.

On the other hand, I have heard of 4NT openings showing power, 4NT openings showing shape, and 4NT openings showing both power and shape (original Romex used a 4NT opening to show 1-1-6-5 or 1-1-5-6 with 2 losers).

4N specific aces is, as I understand it, part of Acol and has been "forever". On the other hand, I only know about 3 anecdotes of it ever turning up.

[blackshoe]

PhilKing, on 2013-July-28, 16:33, said:

How many people know what a 4NT opening means in SAYC?

As I read the SAYC booklet, it's undefined.

[mfa1010]

ArtK78, on 2013-July-29, 09:01, said:

I don't think that a 4NT opening asking for specific aces is very common. I have never seen it, nor have I heard anyone mention it except once or twice in these Fora. It has never come up in any live bridge discussion that I have had.

On the other hand, I have heard of 4NT openings showing power, 4NT openings showing shape, and 4NT openings showing both power and shape (original Romex used a 4NT opening to show 1-1-6-5 or 1-1-5-6 with 2 losers).

I have found that 4N specific aces does come up with reasonable frequency. Virtually every expert pair around here play 4N as specific aces, a few as both minors preemptive or as a good 5m preempt.

I wouldn't want to play 4N as anything else but specific aces. "Undefined" is bad for a serious partnership.

The reply with 2 aces is colour-rank-odd at the 6-level btw. 6♣ = reds or blacks, 6♦ = majors or minors, 6♥ = ♠♦ or ♥♣.
Those responses fit nicely with our hand.

This hand can be bid either by opening a pedestrian 4N or by trying some tactical manouvre hoping to get doubled in a making contract. I would try the former.

[gszes]

i will try 2c followed by 3c followed by 5n and converting to either 6d or 7d
it is not preemptive and it takes p trust to pass the final dia bid after showing
a game forcing hand with clubs. The only other methods would involve specific
ace asking im not even sure most are legal in acbl land.

[lycier]

ahydra, on 2013-July-28, 15:52, said:

Open 4NT, if partner shows the CA we bid 7D, otherwise 6D. Easy.

The only problem is if partner shows 2 aces - in which case we either need a method to determine which, play it safe with 6D, or punt 7D based on the fact there's a 2/3 chance one of them is the CA.

ahydra

Yes,same method,open 4nt to ask specific Ace,so easy to decide bid 6♦ or 7♦.

[PhilKing]

Opening 2♣ is an error IMO. The chances of an uncontested auction must be very small indeed, and keeping it low allows the oppoents too much chance to find a fit.

If we are going to start low, I prefer 1♦ for tactical reasons, which increases the chance of playing in 6♦x.

[jeffford76]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-28, 16:24, said:

This is one of the few hands where you can make partner's head explode as he wonders what to bid with 3 aces over 4N (and the answer usually isn't 7N if he has a void diamond).

I thought it was obvious with 3 to bid the one you didn't have. Surely partner has that one and will work it out, right?