[jillybean]

I'm concerned at this news and alarmed that the WBF see the "solution" as the end of the issue.
What are others opinions?



http://newinbridge.com/

http://bridgewinners...ot-exactly-but/

[hrothgar]

jillybean, on 2013-July-09, 09:19, said:

I'm concerned at this news and alarmed that the WBF see the "solution" as the end of the issue.
What are others opinions?



http://newinbridge.com/

http://bridgewinners...ot-exactly-but/

I would like to sincerely request that the the forum administrators lock this thread.
The discussion at Bridgewinners got pretty ugly

There are lots of strong opinions and very little first hand knowledge about what's going on...

[wyman]

I'd prefer that they just moderate the thread, honestly. I don't like the idea of mods locking threads on relevant topics because the community might not observe some level of decorum.

I don't read much on Bridgewinners. Maybe the discussion here can be more cordial, and maybe some of the comments on bridgewinners can jumpstart things over here.

But I think hrothgar's point is well-taken. This is obviously a massively sensitive issue; let's behave.

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2013-July-09, 09:22, said:

I would like to sincerely request that the the forum administrators lock this thread.

I don't think it's fair to lock it preemptively, but if it starts getting flamish I will.

[ArtK78]

I would object to this thread being locked. It is an important issue.

Quite frankly, when I first heard that the World Championships were to be held in Bali, I thought something like this might happen.

[MickyB]

Almost everything that can be said on this has already been said, several times, in various other places on the web. For all this debate, very few will have changed their views on the subject.

[hrothgar]

If folks want to discuss this, fine...

1. I consider it completely unacceptable to hold championships in countries that refuse to issue visa’s to a broad class of competitors. I like to think that I would hold the same opinion regardless of whether we’re talking about the Indonesia refusing to grant visa’s to Israeli’s, the United States refusing to grant visa’s to Pakistani’s, Australia refusing to grant visa’s to Americans, or Danes refusing to grant Visa’s to Swedes. It’s often impossible to know what would happen until an event occurs. However, I’d argue on a practical level that WC’s should not be held in the US due to the high likelihood the visa’s would not be granted to muslims who are competing. (The point is probably moot since I can’t envision the ACBL ever again shelling out the $$$ necessary to fund a competition)

2. I don’t believe that Indonesia’s behavior wrt to visa’s rises to the standards required to disqualify them from hosting this event. Indonesia and Israel do not formally recognize one another. Indonesia does not issue “just in time” visa entries to a number of countries (including both Israeli and Pakistan). The Indonesia authorities and Israeli reached an agreement to issue visas in a standard transit hub close by to Indonesia. This might not have been the most convenient way to do things, however, all this was known in advance at the point in time at which the site of selected. I think that the whole Visa issue is a distraction.

3. I don’t feel that the Indonesians have an obligation to provide the Israeli’s with special treatment wrt security. I understand completely why the Israeli government has special policies to protect their sports teams. I believe that it is prudent for them to do so. I wish that the Israeli’s and the Indonesians had been able to work things out. However, at the end of the day, I don’t believe that the host country is obliged to provide special treatment for individual participants and I don’t think that the WC should be yanked from Indonesia because they failed to do so.

4. Expanding on the previous point: If the Israeli’s and the Indonesians can’t get along well enough to even discuss security, this is a powerful signal that the Israeli team might be well advised not to travel to Indonesia. In theory, the WBF could try to twist arms and make the two sides pretend to work and play well together. Ultimately, this would only paper over the differences and not provide any real security. I’d rather know what’s going on than see one side or the other going through the motions.

5. I’d argue that pulling the WC from Indonesia is tantamount to saying that WC’s can’t be held in Muslim countries. I don’t consider this acceptable. When push comes to shove I prefer a situation in which the Israeli team chooses not to participate than one where a broad class of countries is barred from hosting.

[jonottawa]

I so seldom give likes, but hrothgar so perfectly encapsulated what I wanted to say, only better than I could, that I made an exception this time.

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2013-July-09, 10:22, said:

If folks want to discuss this, fine...

1. I consider it completely unacceptable to hold championships in countries that refuse to issue visa’s to competitors.

How many places are there that issue visas to just about everyone?

[hrothgar]

barmar, on 2013-July-09, 10:35, said:

How many places are there that issue visas to just about everyone?

I'll amend my original posting to read "a broad class of competitors".

Refusing to issue visa's to Japanese competitors is verboten.
Refusing to issue a visa to a particular Japanese competitor because he is wanted for mass murder is acceptable.

[diana_eva]

http://newinbridge.c...i-israeli-women

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2013-July-09, 10:38, said:

I'll amend my original posting to read "a broad class of competitors".

Refusing to issue visa's to Japanese competitors is verboten.
Refusing to issue a visa to a particular Japanese competitor because he is wanted for mass murder is acceptable.

I understand that distinction, and it's not what I meant.

How many places are there that issue visas to citizens of all countries?

[hrothgar]

barmar, on 2013-July-09, 10:43, said:

I understand that distinction, and it's not what I meant.
How many places are there that issue visas to citizens of all countries?

57. (and yes, I am pulling that number out of my ass. If you really care about the answer, feel free and do some research)

From a practical perspective, we only need to worry about countries that issue visa's to countries that participate in WBF championships which considerably narrows things. (I would also allow an exception for countries like South Africa which were banned from international sports competitions as a matter of policy back during the apartheid days)

With this said and done, I stand by my assertion.

If a country refuses to issue visa's on the basis of citizenship, they should not be allowed to host an WBF championship.
I'd even go further and stand that countries that exhibit strong bias in granting visas should be excluded.

[gnasher]

barmar, on 2013-July-09, 10:43, said:

How many places are there that issue visas to citizens of all countries?

At least one: Indonesia issues visas to citizens of all countries.

[barmar]

gnasher, on 2013-July-09, 10:50, said:

At least one: Indonesia issues visas to citizens of all countries.

Huh? I thought this whole thing started because Indonesia wouldn't issue visas to Israelis.

Anyway, my general point is that if we restrict international competitions to places that are extremely free in their issuance of visas, we'll probably be rotating through the same handful of countries. You need to be a bit more understanding when negotiating the maze of international politics.

[Cyberyeti]

If you look at hosting bigger international sports gatherings, it's normal for the hosts in the bid document to indicate how they're going to keep the competitors secure, and if Bali didn't supply plans for keeping the Israelis safe that were to the satisfaction of the bridge authorities, then the championship should have been moved. If the bridge authorities were happy but the Israelis weren't, then the Israelis have to withdraw. If the bridge authorities didn't see this coming, or didn't ask for this, then they're incompetent.

[Cyberyeti]

barmar, on 2013-July-09, 11:08, said:

Huh? I thought this whole thing started because Indonesia wouldn't issue visas to Israelis.

No they just delayed a bit then made it awkward and expensive.

[hrothgar]

barmar, on 2013-July-09, 11:08, said:

Huh? I thought this whole thing started because Indonesia wouldn't issue visas to Israelis.

Anyway, my general point is that if we restrict international competitions to places that are extremely free in their issuance of visas, we'll probably be rotating through the same handful of countries. You need to be a bit more understanding when negotiating the maze of international politics.

The whole thing started with people complaining that Indonesia wouldn't issue visa's to Israelis.

It (eventually) transpired that the real issue involved security.

1. The Israeli government wanted to engage with Indonesian representatives regarding the security at the site
2. Claims have been made that the Indonesians stonewalled the Israeli's and refused to engage even after multiple direct requests
3. The Israeli team was instructed by their government to withdraw from the event because they couldn't verify that appropriate security was being provided

Hence my comment " I think that the whole Visa issue is a distraction."

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-July-09, 11:13, said:

If you look at hosting bigger international sports gatherings, it's normal for the hosts in the bid document to indicate how they're going to keep the competitors secure, and if Bali didn't supply plans for keeping the Israelis safe that were to the satisfaction of the bridge authorities, then the championship should have been moved. If the bridge authorities were happy but the Israelis weren't, then the Israelis have to withdraw. If the bridge authorities didn't see this coming, or didn't ask for this, then they're incompetent.

I'd put my money on this and the token response to the issue leaves me with an impression of "and we don't care".

[cherdano]

barmar, on 2013-July-09, 11:08, said:

Huh? I thought this whole thing started because Indonesia wouldn't issue visas to Israelis.

This discussion will explode easily enough without participants who fail to read.