[WGF_Flame]

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1NT
2♣ - 2NT

How strong can the 2♣ be ?
How strong should the 2NT be ?

[Zelandakh]

Traditionally: 2♣ is a minimum opener with 6+ clubs, hoping to improve the part score; and 2NT does not exist.

[billw55]

Zelandakh, on 2013-March-19, 04:30, said:

Traditionally: 2♣ is a minimum opener with 6+ clubs, hoping to improve the part score; and 2NT does not exist.

If it doesn't exist, maybe we should find a use for it. Perhaps it could show an upper end 1NT call with Hxx in clubs and pointy suit stoppers; suggesting to opener that a light 3NT may be on if the club suit is running. Perhaps KJx xx Kxxxx Qxx?

Obviously I just made that up, but it was fun.

edit: added a diamond spot to make 13 cards.

[jogs]

billw55, on 2013-March-19, 06:25, said:

If it doesn't exist, maybe we should find a use for it. Perhaps it could show an upper end 1NT call with Hxx in clubs and pointy suit stoppers; suggesting to opener that a light 3NT may be on if the club suit is running. Perhaps KJx xx Kxxx Qxx?

Obviously I just made that up, but it was fun.

Where's the 13th card? Raise to 3♣. Then pard would be in a better position to know if clubs are running.

[Cyberyeti]

jogs, on 2013-March-19, 07:35, said:

Where's the 13th card? Raise to 3♣. Then pard would be in a better position to know if clubs are running.

Depends slightly on style whether 1♠ is nat/4SF here.

IMO 3♣ is what you bid where you have say Kxx, Kxx, xxxx, Axx (again system dependent, we respond 1♦ rather than 1N here) where 5♣ is cold opposite Ax, QJ9x, x, KQxxxx and 3N is bad, 2N is what you bid with K109x, 10x, AJ10x, Jxx where you want to put 3N in the frame rather than 5♣. Basically 3♣ has more points in partner's suits.

[WGF_Flame]

Lets say opener has 14-15-16-17 hcp and responder has 9-10 hcp.
How will they get (or not get to game) with these hands.
Should it be opener who make a bid other then 2C (ex 3C or 2NT), or should it be responder that after 2C make another bid ?

[Cyberyeti]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-19, 10:10, said:

Lets say opener has 14-15-16-17 hcp and responder has 9-10 hcp.
How will they get (or not get to game) with these hands.
Should it be opener who make a bid other then 2C (ex 3C or 2NT), or should it be responder that after 2C make another bid ?

Is 1♥ forcing ? What is 1♣-1♦-2♥ ? Is 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ nat or 4SF and if 4SF is it GF ?

If opener denies a very decent hand with the 1♥ rebid, then he doesn't require the earth for 1♣-1♦-1♥-1N-3♣. You may also need to discuss what 1♣-1♦-1♥-1N-2♠ is as that will depend on the answer to some of the previous questions.

I would almost never bid again with the 1N hand as I think 1♣-1♦-1♥-1N-2♣ can be a 10 count, so it has to be the opener that acts, but that may not be your style.

[PhilKing]

I think responder can bid on with a perfecto.

♠AJT♥T9x♦JTxxx♣Kx bids 2NT. 3N could be huge/cold.

♠ATx♥QTx♦JTxx♣Kxx bids 3♣. 5♣ likely makes opposite Kx AJxx x Axxxxx and has play for slam. I might bid 3♣ with less - this is a 2♠ bid, showing a perfect hand.

2NT is just on the way to 3♣ - opener will remove to 3♣ or bid 3NT.

[WGF_Flame]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-March-19, 10:19, said:

Is 1♥ forcing ? What is 1♣-1♦-2♥ ? Is 1♣-1♦-1♥-1♠ nat or 4SF and if 4SF is it GF ?

If opener denies a very decent hand with the 1♥ rebid, then he doesn't require the earth for 1♣-1♦-1♥-1N-3♣. You may also need to discuss what 1♣-1♦-1♥-1N-2♠ is as that will depend on the answer to some of the previous questions.

I would almost never bid again with the 1N hand as I think 1♣-1♦-1♥-1N-2♣ can be a 10 count, so it has to be the opener that acts, but that may not be your style.

1h is not forcing but it can be very strong. 1S= spades 6+ hcp
my partner (who is a very good player) thinks that 2C can also be strong (15-16 points i think) and he therefore thinks that its his duty with a good 9 (not a perfect that wants game opposite 12) to carry on.

[aguahombre]

PhilKing gave a nice example of a use for 2NT. Teachers should stick with DNE to get the idea sunk in to their students--when two hand are limited, stop bidding.

[WGF_Flame]

aguahombre, on 2013-March-19, 11:19, said:

PhilKing gave a nice example of a use for 2NT. Teachers should stick with DNE to get the idea sunk in to their students--when two hand are limited, stop bidding.

Well i'm not looking for teaching material, my partner is an expert and I wanted to know if this is an expert standard.

[Cyberyeti]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-19, 11:03, said:

1h is not forcing but it can be very strong. 1S= spades 6+ hcp

ergo 2♠ would show an enormous hand rather than spades so 3♣ doesn't show the earth.

Quote

my partner (who is a very good player) thinks that 2C can also be strong (15-16 points i think) and he therefore thinks that its his duty with a good 9 (not a perfect that wants game opposite 12) to carry on.

You can play that way, but you need to know that's what you're playing, I'd much rather bid 3♣ over 1N on xx, AKxx, x, AKxxxx so partner knows that 2♣ is minimum and he doesn't have to strain.

[Zelandakh]

With 16+ and 6-4, I think it is on Opener to make a stronger move over 1NT than 2♣. Basically, when Opener bids 2♣ they are saying that they do not think game is on. If Opener has game ambitions then they have plenty of invites available on this auction.

[lowerline]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-19, 04:18, said:

1♣ - 1♦
1♥ - 1NT
2♣ - 2NT

How strong can the 2♣ be ?
How strong should the 2NT be ?

Do you play Walsh? Then the 1♥ rebid shows an unbalanced hand (probably a 5crd club suit).
Responders 1nt rebid is probably showing a 5crd diamond suit (because he could have responded 1nt immediately or bid 2♣ instead).
Openers 2♣ is showing a minimum 4-6. So responder probably has a maximum 3-3-5-2 with double stopper in spades (without a maximum he should pass and without the spade strength he should bid 3♣ with a maximum).

Steven

[gnasher]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-19, 11:39, said:

Well i'm not looking for teaching material, my partner is an expert and I wanted to know if this is an expert standard.

Yes, it's expert standard, but mainly as a matter of logic rather than system.

It's inconceivable that responder would bid 2NT as an attempt to improve the contract. Therefore 2NT must be invitational. For the 1NT bidder to consider game in this sequence, he must have a club honour and a working maximum.

3♣ is also invitational, obviously. If we have two invitational actions, it's sensible to make use of both. It's normal for the notrump bid to suggest a notrump contract and the suit bid to suggest a suit contract.

[PhilKing]

WGF_Flame, on 2013-March-19, 10:10, said:

Lets say opener has 14-15-16-17 hcp and responder has 9-10 hcp.
How will they get (or not get to game) with these hands.
Should it be opener who make a bid other then 2C (ex 3C or 2NT), or should it be responder that after 2C make another bid ?

I don't think it is standard (or wise) to play that responder is expected to move with 9 or a bad 10. Moving over 2♣ should show a perfecto that can visualise a low point count game once he knows about the sixth club.

On the 14 count that Cyberyeti gave, I am pretty sure 90+% of experts would jump to 3♣, so 2♣ is pretty limited.

[WGF_Flame]

I check with my partner and also checked this issue with GIB.
1. the 2c bid doesn't show 6 clubs, and it could hold some strong hands with 5C4H.
2. with 5C4H and 17-18 you can bid 2NT (gib say 16-18)
3. with 5C4H and 15-16 you will bid 2C (gib strangly bid 2c with stronger then this which is a mistake imo)

I thought it make sense to lower down the 2NT to something like 15-17 which mean that with 18-19 yo will need to find something else maybe 3NT

[PhilKing]

Why on earth would you remove 1NT to 2♣ with five?

And why the **** would you check with GIB?