[rhm]

ggwhiz, on 2012-October-07, 21:04, said:

We don't bid for stops in an auction like this, it asks pard about the rest of their pattern and responder has plenty more room to plutz into the right game.

Over 2♠ 2nt = 2-5-4-2 3♣ = 1-5-4-3 (bullseye) 3♦ = ?-5-5-? 3♥ = ?-6-4-? 3♠ = 3-5-4-1 None of those ? have 3 clubs.

We find this to be much more usefull info more often than just asking for a stopper when we know we have game somewhere.

...

Except that you can receive exactly the same information by bidding 2NT, while 2♠ can be asking for a stopper or rather more likely an attempt to right-side notrump.
It is not like you have to make a choice between 2 possible meanings of a bid.

Rainer Herrmann

[the hog]

rhm, on 2012-October-07, 16:27, said:

What about the ♦Q? I may not need even the ♥K!
Opener is not that likely to hold all 3 top honors in hearts anyway and even than a grand in hearts might require that hearts break.
Treating this heart support as a doubleton is sensible
If this is a 2/1 sequence I would bid 2NT, because I am interested in partner's next rebid.
I will not want to stop below 6NT anyway.

Rainer Herrmann

Posts like this make me laugh. So partner with a xx AKQJx Jxxx xx bids 3NT over your 2NT bid. Now what? 6NT is a great contract, isn't it? Far better is to bid 2H as a waiting bid. Now you are lower and can find out more information about the H suit.

[rhm]

the hog, on 2012-October-08, 03:53, said:

Posts like this make me laugh. So partner with a xx AKQJx Jxxx xx bids 3NT over your 2NT bid. Now what? 6NT is a great contract, isn't it? Far better is to bid 2H as a waiting bid. Now you are lower and can find out more information about the H suit.

If I were you I would make the hand Jx AKQJx Jxxx Jx, so that you have at least a clear opening bid.

With your hand 1♥ would not be my choice, and if it were, it would not occur to me to bid 2 ♦ in a strong constructive sequence, since I have no intention to suggest diamonds as a strain.

The laughing stock is you

Rainer Herrmann

[TWO4BRIDGE]

OK, Hanoi .... we're ready for partner's hand ( or at least I am ) .

[lalldonn]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-October-07, 05:20, said:

You're missing that he hasn't specified 2/1 do you really want to play there ? Even if you are playing 2/1 (see the hand below) it's not clear you want to be in hearts.

What do you think the reply to 2♠ will be ? If it's 3♣, clubs will often play much better than hearts (x, Axxxx, AQxx, Jxx for example), if it's 3♦ I can bid 3♥, if it's 3♥ I'll keycard 4♠, you know partner isn't bidding no trumps unless he's 4540 given the spade honours you hold and this is a once in a blue moon scenario.

Of course I'm going to assume it's 2/1 game forcing.

If I bid 2♥, then bid keycard, and we are off one + the queen, I will bid 6NT anyway. I can't imagine it being worse than a club break, and opposite hands like your example there are 12 top tricks. I don't have to play in hearts after bidding 2♥. I know you are trying to make me miss 7♣ and it is possible. But if you bid 2♠ and partner bids 3♣ will you be able to tell later whether he has that hand, or x AQxxx AJxx xxx?

If I bid 2♠ and partner bids 2NT or 3♦ and I bid 3♥, that does not promise three card support (in fact I would tend to have two after bidding 2♠). If partner next bids 3NT (very likely) what am I supposed to bid to assure I will be able to then bid keycard for anything?

[aguahombre]

Not sure I understand wanting to go for 6NT with the hand examples where the tricks and entry issues on a heart lead thru opener make 12 tricks in clubs much more attractive. A spade ruff for a trick is more likely in a club contract than in NT.

[lalldonn]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 09:11, said:

Not sure I understand wanting to go for 6NT with the hand examples where the tricks and entry issues on a heart lead thru opener make 12 tricks in clubs much more attractive. A spade ruff for a trick is more likely in a club contract than in NT.

You may be right that after 1♥ 2♣, 2♦ 2♥, 3♣ and then finding out I am off 1+queen I should bid 6♣ not 6NT. But my point is 2♥ doesn't commit you to playing in hearts.

[Cyberyeti]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-08, 08:52, said:

Of course I'm going to assume it's 2/1 game forcing.

If I bid 2♥, then bid keycard, and we are off one + the queen, I will bid 6NT anyway. I can't imagine it being worse than a club break, and opposite hands like your example there are 12 top tricks. I don't have to play in hearts after bidding 2♥. I know you are trying to make me miss 7♣ and it is possible. But if you bid 2♠ and partner bids 3♣ will you be able to tell later whether he has that hand, or x AQxxx AJxx xxx?

If I bid 2♠ and partner bids 2NT or 3♦ and I bid 3♥, that does not promise three card support (in fact I would tend to have two after bidding 2♠). If partner next bids 3NT (very likely) what am I supposed to bid to assure I will be able to then bid keycard for anything?

Opposite the hand you give 7♣ is better than 6♥ and as good as 6N.

I'm used to 2/1 not GF so is a WTP 2♠ for me.

Actually I will be able to tell the difference between my hand and yours because I have all the other potentially useful cards, I can bid 4♦ kickback over 3♣, partner bids 4N for 2 without and now I bid 5♦ (I have the K or Q♦, bid 7 with the other one), partner will bid 5N (I don't have K/Q♦ or K♥/♠ but I do have something of use which looking at my hand must be Q♥ so I can make an informed decision.

[lalldonn]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-October-08, 09:51, said:

Opposite the hand you give 7♣ is better than 6♥ and as good as 6N.

I'm used to 2/1 not GF so is a WTP 2♠ for me.

Actually I will be able to tell the difference between my hand and yours because I have all the other potentially useful cards, I can bid 4♦ kickback over 3♣, partner bids 4N for 2 without and now I bid 5♦ (I have the K or Q♦, bid 7 with the other one), partner will bid 5N (I don't have K/Q♦ or K♥/♠ but I do have something of use which looking at my hand must be Q♥ so I can make an informed decision.

In order...
My example wasn't perfect, you are right.

I won't try to get into a discussion about what to bid if 2♣ was not game forcing since I have no experience with that. But it is my understanding that on the forums, 2/1 game forcing is assumed unless we are told otherwise. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting otherwise until now.

Why can't you make the same 4♦ kickback bid for clubs if you have bid 2♥ instead of 2♠? I agree that if partner is 1543 then clubs will often be better, but that isn't an argument for not bidding 2♥. And if partner has other shapes then as I said, bidding keycard later may be complicated or impossible if you haven't bid 2♥ now.

[Cyberyeti]

lalldonn, on 2012-October-08, 10:32, said:

In order...
My example wasn't perfect, you are right.

I won't try to get into a discussion about what to bid if 2♣ was not game forcing since I have no experience with that. But it is my understanding that on the forums, 2/1 game forcing is assumed unless we are told otherwise. I don't recall anyone ever suggesting otherwise until now.

Why can't you make the same 4♦ kickback bid for clubs if you have bid 2♥ instead of 2♠? I agree that if partner is 1543 then clubs will often be better, but that isn't an argument for not bidding 2♥. And if partner has other shapes then as I said, bidding keycard later may be complicated or impossible if you haven't bid 2♥ now.

I'm not getting into another argument over what board standard is, but I keep getting told off for assuming the wrong board standard in different threads by different people (I assumed 5542 and was told it was 5533 having also done the reverse and have been told board standard is 2/1 GF and not GF in different threads over the years).

As I was trying to say, I have no experience with 2/1 GF so would have to bid a WTP 2♠ as 2♥ would not be forcing.

We also bid kickback much more liberally than most people so for example 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♠-3♦-?
4♥ would be kickback in ♦
4♠ would be kickback in ♥
To sign off in 4♥ you have to bid 3♥ then 4♥