[MickyB]

Pips approximate. Does the vul and scoring make any difference to your choice of call?

---

[dwar0123]

double and then bid 5♣ over 4♦ or 4♣, pass 4♥. If partner bids 5♦, let him play it. If opponents bid 4♠ double again.

[RunemPard]

Give partner as little as 3 small hearts and the K of clubs and we can make on a 3/2 split.

I guess I will bid 4 clubs. But I never get what I am looking for.

[Codo]

4 ♣, I opened 1 ♥ with the intention to rebid clubs in a gameforcing manner. I am not happy to do it at this level, but such is live.

Double would cater for a partner who passed in front of the 3 ♠ bidder with a trap pass of spades. Looks unlikely...

I would bid 4 ♣ at any form of scoring and vul. Chances of a making game are much too high not to try for it.

[gwnn]

Codo, on 2012-September-26, 02:43, said:

4 ♣, I opened 1 ♥ with the intention to rebid clubs in a gameforcing manner. I am not happy to do it at this level, but such is live.

Double would cater for a partner who passed in front of the 3 ♠ bidder with a trap pass of spades. Looks unlikely...

I would bid 4 ♣ at any form of scoring and vul. Chances of a making game are much too high not to try for it.

I don't see why 4C is forcing.

[Codo]

gwnn, on 2012-September-26, 03:49, said:

I don't see why 4C is forcing.

So partner may pass with xxxx,xx,xxx,xxxx? Bad luck. He cannot have much more to pass...

[MrAce]

4 ♣ for me.

Why dbl ? Are we seeking slam when we passed 1♥ ? Or are we hoping to be rich in 3♠ doubled ? I mean this guy bid 3♠ in balancing seat he obviously has good spades and we hold the Ace, pd aint passing this, no way, by double all we hear will be 4♦ most of the time.

I totally agree with Codo. 4♣ is basically telling pd to bid 4♥ if he doesnt support clubs, so we are comitting ourside to game vs a pd who passed 1♥, if pd passes 4♣ i will be happy to play there.

[gszes]

i like the idea of x we know p will not pass but what if something other than
4d happens? All it takes is xx xx xxxxx xxxx to give us a superb chance of
making 5c. I am willing to chance 5c over a 4d bid. Bidding 4c here gives up
on a possible (unlikely) 3n for no good reason other than pure pessimism.

[kayin801]

Codo and Timo have the best of it. I guess we could have 300 in 3♠X but if we do I would be surprised if we can't make game (yes obviously there are constructions where this is the case).

I think a more interesting question is what to bid if partner bids 4♦ (presumably natural and to play) over 4♣. Raise or pull or sit?

[ggwhiz]

Double for me. If pard has a poorly fitting hand with some diamond junk and/or the club jack this is our last plus and it might even be 500 with some spade junk thrown in. If they run to 4♥ I might make it and if they run to 4♦ we probably go down against 3♠ down 1 (maybe 2) but thems the breaks.

If they run to 4♣ I'll raise and not be surprised if they fail on a losing club finesse.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2012-September-26, 07:04, said:

4 ♣ for me.

Why dbl ? Are we seeking slam when we passed 1♥ ? Or are we hoping to be rich in 3♠ doubled ? I mean this guy bid 3♠ in balancing seat he obviously has good spades and we hold the Ace, pd aint passing this, no way, by double all we hear will be 4♦ most of the time.

I totally agree with Codo. 4♣ is basically telling pd to bid 4♥ if he doesnt support clubs, so we are comitting ourside to game vs a pd who passed 1♥, if pd passes 4♣ i will be happy to play there.

I do not criticize 4♣ but I doubt many would pass if we held the same hand, but a low ♦ instead of the ♦A.
RHO did not leave you with much choice. It is not like jumping to 4♣ over 2♠.
Partner should often pass when game would be cold.

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

I cannot imagine doing anything but doubling. 4C is so unnatural to me that it would not have occured to me at the table. I can see it working out well though, although it seems very pessimistic. Perhaps this is a blind spot for me.

4C as forcing is also amazing to me, and I am pretty sure that that is not one of my blind spots.

[han]

rhm, on 2012-September-29, 02:05, said:

I do not criticize 4♣ but I doubt many would pass if we held the same hand, but a low ♦ instead of the ♦A.

I would rather bid 4C with an even weaker 6-5, or with a weaker 5-5 with much better suits.

[MrAce]

I must be missing something terribly. I am trying to figure the need of making a forcing bid, but i am yet to see it or a convincing argument about it.

-I opened 1♥, and pd passed.
-I am now bidding 4♣, i don't know others but i am bidding game with pds hand with all 4+♣ supports after i passed already. Whether my pd has this hand or 11 hcp 6-5 hand.
-Everyone assuming that we will have a big fit 9+ card, no one predicting we may not have a fit at all or even if we do we may have only 8 card club fit and if so 5♣ is terrible most of the time.

I also find it amusing to see the competition between some posters about how many other hands which are much weaker than this they would bid 4♣ with. Admittedly i would do too. I think what they ignore or overlook is that when pd lifts to 5 with 4+ card support, it will almost always be right regardless of you have 21 hcp or 9 hcp 6-5 hand for obvious reasons.

If someone is seeking slam, after deciding that this hand doesn't worth opening 2♣, and after pd passed 1♥, then i think they should start double. But for the reasons i already mentioned what we will hear be 4♦ on normal days and seeking slam is above me.

I mean i dont really understand the concept of trying to describe my hand to a pd who passed 1♥ either. What he needs to know is very simple, i heard he passed and i am bidding a new suit at 4 level, whether with a lot of hcp and shape or just shape, his duty is to support me if he has 4+ card support. I can't tell my pd "hey i have a great 6-5 hand and 16 hcp, or 5-5 hand and 19 hcp or 6-6 hand and 12 hcp or 5-5 hand and 21 hcp " It is a torture for pd to try to construct hands for us and make an accurate decision looking at 2 jacks in his hand and a balanced hand. So you are having a less Ace or less 2 aces will not really matter for him, he will support you with 4+ card in your second suit. Maybe Rainer and Han can accurately transfer info by double each time to their pd in an auction like this and pd knows what to bid accurately but i think it is unrealistic.

If someone believes this hand is way too strong then open 2♣. I know you don't like to open 2♣ with 2 suiters but ironically you are doing even much worse job by doubling now, because the reason you didn't open 2♣ was to show your 2 suits, you hoped 1 ♥ would not be passed out, which it didn't, but you gave up on your plan and suddenly obsessed on telling pd how many hcp you have, who passed 1♥ by the way!! If you were so obsessed about the strength and want to show your beans first then open 2 ♣ ! If you don't think this hand worths 2♣ then why are you trying to make a forcing bid vs a pd who passed 1♥ ?

I admit i would be missing a game when we have 5-3 ♣ fit and 5 is making sometimes, but this only is not enough for me to try to make a forcing bid. Who knows, perhaps i am being overly pessimistic on this hand as Han said. But am i really ? Should i really make a forcing bid with this like a runaway truck without jake brakes and hear DBL on my left ?

Asking myself later "how did we come here ?"

-We came after my pd passed 1 ♥
-We came eventhough i knew it wasn't even gonna be a good save vs their game because my hand tells me they are very likely to go down in 4.
-How about a fit ? Did we have a known fit which made me so brave ? Nope
-How about some confident that we have a fit ? Which bid in this auction convinced me that we are very likely to have a fit ? Nope and None

[mcphee]

4C is a standout to most. For me it is not F at all, however should partner pass I would expect a pretty bad hand. If partner were to bid diamonds over this I would raise, expecting something like QJxxxx of D and out.

To dble intending to bid 5C over 4D strikes me as not at all best.Is that supposed to show a stronger dble? It is possible that partner may pass while unlikely, Jxxx xx Qxxx xxx what are you doing? We may encounter some problems in 4C yes, but when they have a similar hand Jxxx xx Qxx Jxxx 5C is not the worst spot to be is it, and you expect partner to raise with this.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2012-September-30, 06:10, said:

I must be missing something terribly. I am trying to figure the need of making a forcing bid, but i am yet to see it or a convincing argument about it.

-I opened 1♥, and pd passed.
-I am now bidding 4♣, i don't know others but i am bidding game with pds hand with all 4+♣ supports after i passed already. Whether my pd has this hand or 11 hcp 6-5 hand.
-Everyone assuming that we will have a big fit 9+ card, no one predicting we may not have a fit at all or even if we do we may have only 8 card club fit and if so 5♣ is terrible most of the time.

I also find it amusing to see the competition between some posters about how many other hands which are much weaker than this they would bid 4♣ with. Admittedly i would do too. I think what they ignore or overlook is that when pd lifts to 5 with 4+ card support, it will almost always be right regardless of you have 21 hcp or 9 hcp 6-5 hand for obvious reasons.

If someone is seeking slam, after deciding that this hand doesn't worth opening 2♣, and after pd passed 1♥, then i think they should start double. But for the reasons i already mentioned what we will hear be 4♦ on normal days and seeking slam is above me.

I mean i dont really understand the concept of trying to describe my hand to a pd who passed 1♥ either. What he needs to know is very simple, i heard he passed and i am bidding a new suit at 4 level, whether with a lot of hcp and shape or just shape, his duty is to support me if he has 4+ card support. I can't tell my pd "hey i have a great 6-5 hand and 16 hcp, or 5-5 hand and 19 hcp or 6-6 hand and 12 hcp or 5-5 hand and 21 hcp " It is a torture for pd to try to construct hands for us and make an accurate decision looking at 2 jacks in his hand and a balanced hand. So you are having a less Ace or less 2 aces will not really matter for him, he will support you with 4+ card in your second suit. Maybe Rainer and Han can accurately transfer info by double each time to their pd in an auction like this and pd knows what to bid accurately but i think it is unrealistic.

If someone believes this hand is way too strong then open 2♣. I know you don't like to open 2♣ with 2 suiters but ironically you are doing even much worse job by doubling now, because the reason you didn't open 2♣ was to show your 2 suits, you hoped 1 ♥ would not be passed out, which it didn't, but you gave up on your plan and suddenly obsessed on telling pd how many hcp you have, who passed 1♥ by the way!! If you were so obsessed about the strength and want to show your beans first then open 2 ♣ ! If you don't think this hand worths 2♣ then why are you trying to make a forcing bid vs a pd who passed 1♥ ?

I admit i would be missing a game when we have 5-3 ♣ fit and 5 is making sometimes, but this only is not enough for me to try to make a forcing bid. Who knows, perhaps i am being overly pessimistic on this hand as Han said. But am i really ? Should i really make a forcing bid with this like a runaway truck without jake brakes and hear DBL on my left ?

Asking myself later "how did we come here ?"

-We came after my pd passed 1 ♥
-We came eventhough i knew it wasn't even gonna be a good save vs their game because my hand tells me they are very likely to go down in 4.
-How about a fit ? Did we have a known fit which made me so brave ? Nope
-How about some confident that we have a fit ? Which bid in this auction convinced me that we are very likely to have a fit ? Nope and None

To make it clear I would bid 4♣ in this awkward situation, but I do consider it an underbid.
In close situations I prefer to bid suits before strength. I feel more comfortable with 4♣ when red.
I consider this hand easily worth a 2♣ opener (2.5 losers. 5 quick tricks), only rebid problems would stop me from doing so.
But if opening such hands with 1♥, it is then my responsibility to reach game. Partner should never expect such a hand in a competitive scenario.
Saying that partner with 4 clubs and an otherwise balanced yarborough should contract for an 11 trick game, possibly as an advanced sacrifice, is dubious. How dubious depends on the vulnerability.
Not all weak hands are created equal. How weak matters. Strong hands tend to go down a lot in value when facing an entry-less dummy.

Now game after all may not be good. You have conflicting evidence. The spade preempt significantly increases your chances that game will be good.
You could also belong in diamonds which you have little chance to reach after 4♣.

Rainer Herrmann

[MrAce]

Rainer why do you see 3♠ as a preempt ?

And is it really good to find diamonds ? Lets say your pd has 6 card diamonds but in other threads we all see people get all excited with 3-4 small spades and 5 card diamonds too when pd doubles. They all predict hands like 5440 6430 5431 and bid accordingly.

Assume he has

xxx
xx
Jxxxxx
Jx

i would of course be ok with playing 4♦ but thats not what i understand from comments, they want to make a forcing bid, which means they are not willing to stop in 4♣. No need to mention what we might be playing in when pass 4♦ can be much worse than this.

EDIT : I agree with your comment that 4♣ might not be a great bid and can be an underbid. But other option seems worse to me, as you admitted you would probably bid 4♣ too, not that you love it but due to what is available in hand. I am not against double and then passing 4♦ eventhough i think it is worse, but not as bad as doubling and then bidding 5♣ like an unstoppable runaway truck.

[gnasher]

If I doubled, it wouldn't be in order to make a slam try (!), and it wouldn't be because I wanted to play in 4♦.

If you decide that your hand is worth game regardless of what partner has, you should double and then convert 4♦ to 5♣. This ensures that you reach 4♥ when you have a heart fit, 5♣ when there is a club fit, and 5♦ when partner is something like 3262. It avoids playing in 4♣ with game on, and it avoids getting to the five level opposite 3=2 in the round suits.

Double also has the advantage that partner can pass it. That might not be very likely, but we would be delighted if it happened.

I'd just bd 4♣. though, as I don't think I'm good enough to insist on game.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2012-September-30, 09:59

[lamford]

Double is the most flexible, which is usually a synonym for wrong, but I would choose that. I would not be lured by the bonus for all four aces at rubber bridge, and would have more of a problem in that form of the game. Still double I think.

[cargobeep]

4♣ without a doubt.This shows partner that I have hand long in clubs and hearts. Since I have raised to game, partner knows I have a huge hand.

Partner should go to 4♥ on as little as XX of ♣ and XXX of ♥ or 5♣ with 5+ club support.