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Just when you think it's going well.

#1 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 10:00

Hand 1:



1C was strong and artificial, 1D was negative. What do you call?
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#2 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 10:10

what's 1S? Limited or unlimited? What are my available responses?

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#3 User is offline   chasetb 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 11:16

It would be nice to know what the lower limit of 1♠ here is. I will treat it like Precision, and therefore I will bid 3♠ as showing 6-7 HCP, 4-5 card support, and no shortness. I can't jump to 4♠ because not only does that kill cuebidding opportunities, I defined it in my system as a max, but a 6322 or 7222 hand.
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#4 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 14:46

Basically, 1C 1D 2S would be GF, so partner has less than that. You play 16+ 1C and a 14-16 NT, so partner is something in the 16-20 ish range with 5+ spades.

Responses are fairly natural. 1C 1D 1S 2S would be something like 3-5 HCP, 3S would be a maximum with 4 card support you think, although you haven't any published agreement.
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#5 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 15:09

 mr1303, on 2012-September-19, 14:46, said:

Basically, 1C 1D 2S would be GF, so partner has less than that. You play 16+ 1C and a 14-16 NT, so partner is something in the 16-20 ish range with 5+ spades.

Responses are fairly natural. 1C 1D 1S 2S would be something like 3-5 HCP, 3S would be a maximum with 4 card support you think, although you haven't any published agreement.



I thought Opener's 1♠ could be canape. Is that not popular anymore?
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#6 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 15:20

we have 2N by responder built in as "best possible hand, usually 5+ card support with a max". I think that makes way more sense then natural and NF, but maybe you have some "impossible" hands built into 1D, too.
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#7 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 15:47

 mr1303, on 2012-September-19, 10:00, said:

1C was strong and artificial, 1D was negative. What do you call?


4♠ looks normal. If 2NT is available I like it to show a hand is now worth more than a negative response, and this hand doesn't really increase in value much.
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#8 User is offline   ThymePuns 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 16:02

kuhchung says "limit raise"

He's really changed since he turned 50. Now all he does is upvote things.

I would also make a limit raise, though at IMPs I might try 4S if partner has shown 5+.
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#9 User is offline   kayin801 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 17:21

I wouldn't get fancy and just make a game forcing raise. If I can't do that under 4♠, I bid 4♠.

I think I play 3NT as this kind of hand.
I once yelled at my partner for discarding the 'wrong' card when he was subjected to a squeeze that I allowed by giving the wrong count with too high a card. Now he's allowed to pitch aces when the opponents have the king in the dummy. At trick 2. When he could have followed suit. And blame me.

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#10 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 18:00

This is a 9 loser hand. 3S is sufficient, 4S is too much and 2S is not enough.
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#11 User is offline   lalldonn 

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Posted 2012-September-19, 18:32

Definitely 4♠, well 2NT if I can but I'm forcing to game. I wouldn't try to stop with 23+ and a 10 card fit, especially since partner probably isn't balanced or he might rebid 1NT.
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#12 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2012-September-20, 06:47

If we were playing 2/1 and partner opened 1♠, I would bid 4♠. So how could I not do so after a precision 1♣?
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#13 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2012-September-20, 09:15

I think I agree with treating this as a limit raise. Massive trump fits aren't always a good thing.

ahydra
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#14 User is offline   JLOGIC 

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Posted 2012-September-20, 16:45

Bid a game and move on with life. You cannot try and stop in 3S on these kind of hands.
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-September-21, 02:49

If you have to waste 3 rounds of bidding with this hand then it argues strongly against any benefit from playing the strong club in the first place. There really should be a way for Responder to show a game-forcing hand below 4♠. If there is no such bid then perhaps it whould not be a bad idea to look at the system notes and find a spare call (2NT, 3♣, whatever) for the next time this comes up.
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#16 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-September-21, 05:30

What exactly are you afraid of missing, and what do you expect a 4♠ bid to look like? It's worth knowing when to not use system as well.
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#17 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-September-21, 05:50

 sfi, on 2012-September-21, 05:30, said:

What exactly are you afraid of missing, and what do you expect a 4♠ bid to look like? It's worth knowing when to not use system as well.

How about Axxxxx/Kxx/-/AKxx for example, plus a card if that is too weak? Why would we not give Opener some extra space to investigate when they can have anything up to a hand just shy of a game force?
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#18 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2012-September-21, 05:52

Yes. If the reason for not bidding 4♠ is that it would make cuebidding impossible, then there should be an inference that 4♠ shows a hand without side suit controls. Hence, very good spade support and probably a couple of outside kings. I think a direct 4♠ bid describes our hand as accurately as anything.
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#19 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-September-21, 06:48

 Zelandakh, on 2012-September-21, 05:50, said:

How about Axxxxx/Kxx/-/AKxx for example, plus a card if that is too weak? Why would we not give Opener some extra space to investigate when they can have anything up to a hand just shy of a game force?


Do you have a way to find out which two suits have third round controls in an otherwise flat hand when both hands are limited? I am impressed. Remember, half the people here don't even want to force to game, so if these hands don't get included in some forcing raise we're better off when I do use one.
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#20 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2012-September-21, 06:55

If anyone has any suggestions as to better kit we could use after 1C 1D bananas auctions, please suggest it.

Partner passed 3S and made 2 overtricks, although I maintain she should have bid 4 on her hand. I did feel at the time that 3S was a slight underbid.

It was matchpoints rather than IMPs if that makes a difference.
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