[rsteele]

You hold: T73, KQT9, 654, A97 vul vs not at imps (victory points) your pd, in 4th chair opens one heart, RHO passes. Do you or do you not use and form of Drury?

[aguahombre]

 rsteele, on 2012-August-29, 08:47, said:

You hold: T73, KQT9, 654, A97 vul vs not at imps (victory points) your pd, in 4th chair opens one heart, RHO passes. Do you or do you not use and form of Drury?

Will try to answer two ways, since the form of the question is unclear to me.

1)Do I use a form of Drury in response to a 4th-chair unfavorable 1♥ opening? No. I would rather assume partner has a real opening bid, or she would not have opened. There must be better ways of showing various forms of heart invites than Drury under those conditions.

2)Would I show invitational strength for hearts with that hand? No. It is flat with 9 losers. Partner will invite game as opener if game is feasable.

[nigel_k]

The hand is definitely good enough to use Drury. I would do it with xxx KJxx xxx Axx or even xxx KJx xxx Axxx though that is probably less than most partnerships would expect.

But I prefer not to use Drury after a 4th seat opening.

[CSGibson]

100% drury on the hand. I have 3 sure cover cards, and a potential ruffing value. And I do play Drury after a 4th seat opening, because I would open Kxxxx Kxxx Ax xx or the like all day long 4th seat.

[aguahombre]

 CSGibson, on 2012-August-29, 14:16, said:

100% drury on the hand. I have 3 sure cover cards, and a potential ruffing value. And I do play Drury after a 4th seat opening, because I would open Kxxxx Kxxx Ax xx or the like all day long 4th seat.

You would open that 1♥? Drury might well have value after a 4th chair 1S bid. But that would be a different thread.

[MickyB]

I don't understand the aversion to Drury after a 4th seat opening. I'd play Drury opposite 1st+2nd seat openings if I knew I wouldn't pick up a GF hand with clubs, instead I have to make do with 1M:2M constructive and putting my weak raises through 1N.

And yes, the actual hand is an obvious Drury bid.

[CSGibson]

 aguahombre, on 2012-August-29, 14:25, said:

You would open that 1♥? Drury might well have value after a 4th chair 1S bid. But that would be a different thread.

Switch the hearts and spades and I'd open it 1H.

[ggwhiz]

Not a problem to use drury here if you have your follow ups in place.

My partnership plays reverse Drury where 2♥ by opener is the "not interested" response. Anything else is a game try and includes hands with slam interest. You can put the brakes on with the posted hand after the drury bid showing just this hand within a narrow range.

[lalldonn]

Easy rule. Make the limit raise if it's at all close when it only forces you to the 2 level. The obvious cases are drury and something like 1♣ 1♥ p 2♣.

[jonottawa]

If I was playing with a weak partner I might (ok, would) bid only 2♥. I think it would be too insulting to a strong partner to do such a thing, given the vulnerability and form of scoring.

Aside from my concern about the 4-3-3-3 shape and less-than-stellar spots (I have great trump spots but what weight do they pull? I'm not cross-ruffing the hand.) I'm worried that thin games are going to require 2-2 trump breaks anyway so if pard has axxxx my ♥Q is useless.

[kenrexford]

On a similar note to others...

If I opened 1♥ in fourth seat, I had a true opening hand. With, say, 4♠/5♥, I need 11 HCP to open, and that is a true opening bid. So, I would NOT use Drury there.

However, if I opened 1♠, I might have seven spades with 8 HCP, which is not a true opening hand, or six spades with 9 HCP. (I open 2♠ in fourth seat with a "2 1/2 spades" hand.) If my partner insisted on Weak 2♠ in fourth seat, then that changes things, such that Drury is not on.


Regardless of all that, though, the proposed hand is a constructive raise hand, so why are we talking Drury anyway? I mean, while a third-seat opening does not trigger a forcing 1NT, a fourth-seat major opening does, IMO.

[Trinidad]

I am fully with MickyB. While originally designed as a checkback to see whether partner really had an opening bid, that is not at all what Drury is about nowadays.

Drury is just a conventional raise of partner's 1M opening and not more than that. It shows a maximum passed hand and 3 (or more, depending on style) card support. The strength varies from mildly invitational to certain to bid game.

Rik

[Trinidad]

 kenrexford, on 2012-August-29, 16:11, said:

I mean, while a third-seat opening does not trigger a forcing 1NT, a fourth-seat major opening does, IMO.

IMO, it is the other way around. Why would you want to play a forcing 1NT, the weakness of the 2/1 system, when you can afford to play Drury (since you cannot have a 2/1 in clubs)? Drury is a cure for the overloaded 1NT response, that becomes available once you are a passed hand. I would say use it when you can, whether you passed in first or in second seat, so that partner can pass the 1NT response if he wants to.

Rik

[kenrexford]

 Trinidad, on 2012-August-29, 21:19, said:

IMO, it is the other way around. Why would you want to play a forcing 1NT, the weakness of the 2/1 system, when you can afford to play Drury (since you cannot have a 2/1 in clubs)? Drury is a cure for the overloaded 1NT response, that becomes available once you are a passed hand. I would say use it when you can, whether you passed in first or in second seat, so that partner can pass the 1NT response if he wants to.

Rik

The weakness of a forcing 1NT in the context of a 2/1 GF auction is the strength range to be covered. A passed hand does not bid 2/1 GF. A passed hand in second seat can bid 2/1 as constructive. Hence, the 1NT bid does not have that liability.

The benefit to a forcing 1NT call in this context is that spotted by Edgar and Alfred in a non-GF situation, namely strain and pattern. the auction becomes KS. If Responder bids a forcing 1NT, he can use a constructive raise, which is fast-arrival Drury. Besides, all "forcing" 1NT calls by a passed
Hand are semi perforce.

Drury takes away a very useful call, BTW, as the most likely non-fit constructive holding is one with long clubs. With all other one-suiters, you would open weak two. 2/3 of non- fit two suiters have clubs. Balanced without a fit usually has four clubs. So, forfeiting 2C seems unwise.

Besides, this still sin't a Drury hand.

[Vampyr]

 MickyB, on 2012-August-29, 14:40, said:

I don't understand the aversion to Drury after a 4th seat opening. I'd play Drury opposite 1st+2nd seat openings if I knew I wouldn't pick up a GF hand with clubs, instead I have to make do with 1M:2M constructive and putting my weak raises through 1N.

I play a form of Drury that might help. After 1M-2♣, fit or clubs, 2 ♦ is the usual bid (exceptions are that 2M shows a minimum with 6 cards and 2♥ if the opening was 1♠ shows a minimum with 5-5. After 2♦, responder has a chance to clarify. Of course now the 2♣ bid does not promise a fit, and I imagine that the guarantee of a fit must be the reason that Drury-fit has universally replaced old-fashioned.

In any case, we have not yet thought about how to indicate which hand-type responder has when there is interference; the situation seems to come up so infrequently (we use Bergen for 4-card raises by passed hands) that we have never felt forced to figure it out.

[Trinidad]

 kenrexford, on 2012-August-29, 21:40, said:

The weakness of a forcing 1NT in the context of a 2/1 GF auction is the strength range to be covered. A passed hand does not bid 2/1 GF. A passed hand in second seat can bid 2/1 as constructive. Hence, the 1NT bid does not have that liability.

The benefit to a forcing 1NT call in this context is that spotted by Edgar and Alfred in a non-GF situation, namely strain and pattern. the auction becomes KS. If Responder bids a forcing 1NT, he can use a constructive raise, which is fast-arrival Drury. Besides, all "forcing" 1NT calls by a passed
Hand are semi perforce.

Drury takes away a very useful call, BTW, as the most likely non-fit constructive holding is one with long clubs. With all other one-suiters, you would open weak two. 2/3 of non- fit two suiters have clubs. Balanced without a fit usually has four clubs. So, forfeiting 2C seems unwise.

Besides, this still sin't a Drury hand.

It is nice to have a non forcing "forcing 1NT", but not if it can contain support for opener's major. In those cases, you will often end up in a ridiculous 1NT contract. The effect of Drury is that it takes exactly those hands out of the 1NT response. When partner opens 1♠ in fourth seat and you hold:

♠ K73
♥ KT96
♦ KJ754
♣ 5

do you really want to bid 1NT? You may be down before you get in while 4♠ is cold. Or do you prefer to bid 2♦ and play it there opposite a weak no trump?

Something similar happens at the other end of the strength range:

♠ J73
♥ T962
♦ KJ75
♣ 54

You will be down in 1NT, but partner can make 2♠ easily. Alternatively, partner bids 2NT with 18-19 balanced and you will be forced to bid 3♠ (hoping that partner passes), where you could have simply been in 2♠.

If you play Drury, with the first hand you will bid Drury, showing about 9-11(14). This will get you to the right strain, and leaves you room to get to the right level. With the second hand, you will bid 2♠, showing about 5(4)-8. Again, you will be in the right contract.

By taking the raises out of the non forcing forcing 1NT, you will get to NT when it is right. The wide strength range will be an advantage since declarer's hand is not known. Opposite dummy's 12, you may hold 6 or 11 HCP.

Finally, you have a good point that 2♣ is useful as a natural bid since there is no weak 2 in clubs. I think that using 2♣ as Drury still wins over natural, but some people play 2♦ as Drury to retain the possibility to show a weak 2 in clubs.

Rik

[han]

I would be delighted to bid drury on this hand and I don't understand the aversion to the convention. Besides sometimes being able to stop in 2H (which makes it possible to bid it on slightly weaker hands such as this one), it also is a great start for possible game and slam investigations.

It seems to me that the reactions from anti-drury bidders here are emotional and probably date back to an era when drury was used as a psyche control. To my mind, it is just a great constructive tool.

[Mbodell]

 han, on 2012-August-30, 01:03, said:

I would be delighted to bid drury on this hand and I don't understand the aversion to the convention. Besides sometimes being able to stop in 2H (which makes it possible to bid it on slightly weaker hands such as this one), it also is a great start for possible game and slam investigations.

It seems to me that the reactions from anti-drury bidders here are emotional and probably date back to an era when drury was used as a psyche control. To my mind, it is just a great constructive tool.

I think there are some who don't like the convention in 4th seat and others who don't rate this hand worth the limit raise. I'm in that second group (at least until I read this thread). When I think limit raise I think 8 LTC and expect partner to play me for that strength. So my gut reaction with this hand, which is 9 LTC, is to just bid 2♥. I expect partner to raise to game, or at least investigate and invite game, with all 5 LTC hands and better. Do I want partner opposite my hand to bid game with a standard 6 LTC hand or invite with a bad 6 LTC/good 7 LTC hand? Do I want to be in a 4♥ game opposite AQx AJxxx Kx Qxx [I'd bid 4♥ over 2♣ with this]? Do I want partner to invite with something like Kxx AJxxxx AJx x [I'd likely bid 3♣ as a full opener short suit game try]? But I get from this thread that part of the issue is that I might well be playing Drury wrong, or without enough sophistication, to stop low often enough opposite "good raises to 2M" that can go through Drury. And I certainly appreciate that it is red at teams so may as well try for all those games with any chance at all.

[Trinidad]

 Mbodell, on 2012-August-30, 01:35, said:

I think there are some who don't like the convention in 4th seat and others who don't rate this hand worth the limit raise. I'm in that second group (at least until I read this thread). When I think limit raise I think 8 LTC and expect partner to play me for that strength. So my gut reaction with this hand, which is 9 LTC, is to just bid 2♥.

I understand what you are saying, but to me Drury is not a limit raise. The traditional limit raise 1M-3M needed to have a narrow (2 point) range for opener to judge the possibilities for game. The range for a standard single raise (6-9, or 7-10) can be wider, because there is more room for tries and counter tries.

After a Drury bid, there is even more room to explore. You are making game tries below the level of 2M! It is hard to say where the optimum width of the ranges should be (also given that opponents will not always be nice and quiet), but it is clear that it should be wider than the classic 2 points for a limit raise and that it can be wider than the range for a single raise.

On top of that, you will have to press the 3 ranges that you have as an unpassed hand (inv:11-12, single raise:7-10, weak raise: 4-6) into 2 bids: the single raise and Drury. Since your range is still 4-12, it makes sense to put the 4-7 in the single raise and the 8-12 into Drury: If opener shows some interest in game, you hit the brakes with 8-9, playing in 2M. With 10-11 you can make a game try and with 12, you make sure that game is reached.

The resulting 8-12 range doesn't resemble a limit raise at all.

Rik

[Mbodell]

 Trinidad, on 2012-August-30, 02:52, said:

On top of that, you will have to press the 3 ranges that you have as an unpassed hand (inv:11-12, single raise:7-10, weak raise: 4-6) into 2 bids: the single raise and Drury. Since your range is still 4-12, it makes sense to put the 4-7 in the single raise and the 8-12 into Drury: If opener shows some interest in game, you hit the brakes with 8-9, playing in 2M. With 10-11 you can make a game try and with 12, you make sure that game is reached.
The resulting 8-12 range doesn't resemble a limit raise at all.

I see what you are saying, but I've always used three ranges (those that go through 1 semi-forcing NT [4-6], those that get a single raise [7-9; really hands that would accept some game try], and limit raise/drury [10-11 - I'd have opened with 12]). I'd expect that to be standard in the US playing 2/1 if I was playing with a random pickup partner and agreed drury. I can see how your version may well be better.