[JonnyQuest]

---

Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda...

Oh well.

Who is to blame? One? Both? How much?

[sailoranch]

I'll pin the blame on North for not opening. There's no way South is going to play partner for that hand.

[twoshy]

It's clear for North to open, but even so, it's clear for South to bid on. ♣AQxxx and out is a cold grand. Even ♣QJxxxx must be a fair shot for six. Simply, South judged poorly. North's initial pass may have been poor judgement or an exotic system, but it shouldn't have led to the result. South 100%.

[sailoranch]

If North weren't a passed hand, I'd put it all on South. He can expect some trump quality, and the spades should be able to provide the diamond discards from dummy.

[twoshy]

Exactly, he can expect a little trump quality and that is all he needs if he plays the hand out in his head. My point is that he can get that from a very minimum hand and does not need to be opposite an opening bid.

[mikestar13]

JonnyQuest, on 2012-August-09, 19:45, said:

Coulda, Shoulda, Woulda...

Oh well.

Who is to blame? One? Both? How much?

How about this for keeping it simple:

---

No way to bid the South hand scientifically, unless for you 5♦ = Grand Slam force in clubs, or some similar gadget. 5NT = GSF is useless, as you only need the A♣, with 11 trumps the queen will fall.

At matchpoints this is tougher as 7♠ is cold unless 5 spades are in one enemy hand or the opening lead is ruffed. Personally, I'd still stick with 7♣--a making grand slam will never be a zero and will often be above average even if a higher scoring grand makes.

[the hog]

North should have opened the bidding. Now I would bid 5NT with the Sth hand GSF.

[CSGibson]

North should open, South should bid slam even after north didn't open, so I'll say that 200% of the blame, split evenly at 100% apiece, gets assigned to both parties.

[Codo]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-10, 01:23, said:

North should open, South should bid slam even after north didn't open, so I'll say that 200% of the blame, split evenly at 100% apiece, gets assigned to both parties.

This...

At least they deserved each other...

[Zelandakh]

mikestar13, on 2012-August-09, 20:35, said:

No way to bid the South hand scientifically

Well if 5♥ was Exclusion, that seems to work.

I do not really like the 4♣ opening, although it is clear that North cannot pass. What is wrong with a simple 1♣?

Equally, if we ignore North's pass for a moment and only looked at the South hand - would we not say ♠AKQJxx is a trump suit? So here's another "keeping it simple" auction (whether realistic or not): (2♥) - 4♠ - (P) - 6♣; (P) - 7♣.

Honestly though, not opening the North hand is by far the worst decision of the auction. So I give 100% to North and only 50% to South.

[Cyberyeti]

N not opening is absurd.

1♣-(2♥)-4♥(exclusion)-4N(1/4)-5♦(Q♣?)-5N(yes + ♦K)-7♣ is fine if as we play the club shows 4.

Otherwise

1♣-(2♥)-3♠(fit GF)-(4♥)-5♣-P-(Whatever your GSF bid is in clubs) will also do as you can play 6♠ if you don't like the answer you get and it takes you beyond 6♣.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 Having üassed with opening strength, ... North wont be able to sell the strength, and a
good 7 card suit, and good 11HCP are certainly similar to an bal. 12 / 13 (bad) count, North
may require for opening.

#2 for further discussion we may assume, North holds 5332 shape, 2 small clubs becoming
a hearts and a spade.

The slam will still be ok, hence South has to do more, Ace 5th with Norths, and a doubleton in
diamonds, or a way to discard a diamond, is enough to make 6 Cclub reasonable, hence South has
to do more.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[phil_20686]

North *must* open.

South should also raise to slam. North needs a real hand to bid 5C opposite a t/o double, at least in offensive strength, as south may have only three clubs. Bidding 5C on a balanced hand is impossible. Five clubs is guaranteed, six is likely. Opposite AQ to five clubs, grand is already odds on. I would bid 5N, to invite partner to bid grand if he has good trumps.

South gets 100% of the blame for missing grand, and an additional 100% of the blame for missing small slam. North gets a bonus 100% for failing to open, although, in this case, that should not have cost. If you are routinely not opening hands as good as the north hand, you should have serious think about your hand evaluation policies.

[billw55]

There are some players out there who just consistently underbid, fearing shadows, vastly overweighting small chances of losing layouts, forever worrying that omg something bad might happen. When two of them get together, things like this happen. They might even be happy about making game.

[ggwhiz]

the hog, on 2012-August-09, 23:23, said:

North should have opened the bidding. Now I would bid 5NT with the Sth hand GSF.

Me too.

I don't know what % to give North for passing such a clear opener but AQxxx and out in clubs as a passed hand makes a good grand and any club holding consistent with a 5 level bid is good for 6.

[CSGibson]

By the way, I don't know where all these people are getting that 5N should be GSF when a MUCH more common usage would be pick-a-slam. I would invite grand by starting with a 5H cue-bid I think, which I would play as agreeing clubs and looking for grand in context - if partner showed signs of life with 5N, then I bid the grand. As is, partner should just bid the grand herself with that hand.

[ggwhiz]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-10, 18:31, said:

By the way, I don't know where all these people are getting that 5N should be GSF when a MUCH more common usage would be pick-a-slam. I would invite grand by starting with a 5H cue-bid I think, which I would play as agreeing clubs and looking for grand in context - if partner showed signs of life with 5N, then I bid the grand. As is, partner should just bid the grand herself with that hand.

Pick a slam? Not on this auction. 5nt is not so much a routine gsf but it forces to 6♣ (our only logical strain) and so must invite 7. I take a 5♥ bid as looking for a return cue, ie a gs try that needs a spade card like owning better clubs but missing the spade king.
.
5nt covers the spade suit as a gs try and pard should bid it with either the good clubs OR the diamond K. I shouldn't need both. And I expect pard to bid 7♣ with that ♦K and a club loser but thems the breaks.

Your approach has mucho merit.

[the hog]

ggwhiz, on 2012-August-10, 20:22, said:

Pick a slam? Not on this auction. 5nt is not so much a routine gsf but it forces to 6♣ (our only logical strain) and so must invite 7. I take a 5♥ bid as looking for a return cue, ie a gs try that needs a spade card like owning better clubs but missing the spade king.
.
snipped

I agree with this comment. 5Nt for me is definitely a gsf.

[phil_20686]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-10, 18:31, said:

By the way, I don't know where all these people are getting that 5N should be GSF when a MUCH more common usage would be pick-a-slam

On this auction? You must be joking. What other strain is in play? Are you driving slam with 55 in spades and diamonds? Surely impossible that you didnt bid leaping micheals? Are you inviting partner to guess what your other suit is apart from clubs in case he is 54 and wants to guess?

I agree that pick a slam is more important than GS force, but in this case pick a slam is impossible, and so it reverts to GSF.

[phil_20686]

ggwhiz, on 2012-August-10, 20:22, said:

5nt covers the spade suit as a gs try and pard should bid it with either the good clubs OR the diamond K. I shouldn't need both. And I expect pard to bid 7♣ with that ♦K and a club loser but thems the breaks.

For me in this sequence, 5N suggests I need good trumps from partner, but have all the side suits covered. 5H suggests that I need a side suit ace, but have reasonable trumps.