[stansllee]

West dealer:
EW vulnerable

---

We do promise four trumps, over Partner's helping suit game try, what's next?

[ArtK78]

4♣, in case partner is looking for slam.

I am definitely accepting the game try. Partner doesn't seem interested in finding out whether I have a 3-card raise (I make them frequently on appropriate hands, such as this one, and partner could ask with 2NT if he cared) and I have a great hand opposite a 3♥ natural game try. All of my side cards are prime, which is exactly what one wants when partner rates to be short in the side suits. Qxx of trump looks better on this auction than it did over 1♠.

In short, I like my hand.

[billw55]

I think if you are not going to rebid 2♣, you might as well have opened 1♣.

That said, my HSGT tends to show a suit with a broken honor holding such as QTxx or similar, not just a bunch of losers, so I would worry about wastage here. Also the HSGT may "help" ops find a trump lead which also worries me. Admittedly the minor suit controls are very nice though .. not sure what I would do.

[ggwhiz]

I would bid 4♣ here and if I had chosen to open 1♣ I would bid 4♦.

This hand is about as good as it gets after the 2♠ bid and partners "game" try is unlimited.

[Phil]

There seems to be a lot of 3145 hands lately that people insist on opening 1♦ and then post the later auction as a problem.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on 2012-April-12, 08:41, said:

There seems to be a lot of 3145 hands lately that people insist on opening 1♦ and then post the later auction as a problem.

And, on some of those 3-1-4-5 hands, such as this one, the choice of opening bid doesn't seem to matter to the issues of the problem. But, it still results in complaints about the conditions in the OP.

Here, we can accept the 3-card raise whether we opened 1C or 1D. Here, we no-longer worry that we only have 3 spades, because responder certainly has 5. I don't think I can come up with a "try" of 3H which doesn't have at least four of them ---therefore at least five spades. We should be accepting, and at the same time preparing in case East is slamming. So, the 4C control bid seems just fine.

[neilkaz]

Phil, on 2012-April-12, 08:41, said:

There seems to be a lot of 3145 hands lately that people insist on opening 1♦ and then post the later auction as a problem.

I think the OP plays precison from reading some of his other threads. To ALL..please say what system you're playing and also what the scoring is! It really doesn't take long to type IMP or MP

[Phil]

aguahombre, on 2012-April-12, 09:32, said:

And, on some of those 3-1-4-5 hands, such as this one, the choice of opening bid doesn't seem to matter to the issues of the problem. But, it still results in complaints about the conditions in the OP.

If I open 1♣, and then deny good spade support, partner knows a lot more about my hand than if I open 1♦. In this case when I bid 3N, I am implying three spades and a maximum. If I had four hearts, I am likely raising 3♥ to four. By the way, I think a help suit game try would be a little odd with 4=3 in the majors.

What else can he work out? If I'm 4-4 in the minors (which is the way you and I play), I open one diamond, so my logical shapes are 3=2=3=5, 3=3=2=5 or 3=1=4=5, so I'm marked with five clubs.

If I open 1♦, I could be 3=1=5=4, 3=2=4=4, 3=2=5=3, or apparently in the OP's case, 3=1=4=5.

None of this doesn't seem to matter a whole lot about the choice of our next bid which is 3N. While I suspect that partner is 5-4 or possibly 5-5 in the majors, be can work out himself if he wants to play 3N or 4♠.

If partner is thinking about bigger things, knowledge about my club length can be really important.

[stansllee]

ArtK78, on 2012-April-12, 07:10, said:

4♣, in case partner is looking for slam.

I am definitely accepting the game try. Partner doesn't seem interested in finding out whether I have a 3-card raise (I make them frequently on appropriate hands, such as this one, and partner could ask with 2NT if he cared) and I have a great hand opposite a 3♥ natural game try. All of my side cards are prime, which is exactly what one wants when partner rates to be short in the side suits. Qxx of trump looks better on this auction than it did over 1♠.

In short, I like my hand.

---

4♣ tells Responder not to be too concerned in hearts, Opener promised something good in hearts.

[rmnka447]

4 ♣ on the way to 4 ♠ seems right. Your 3 card support is OK because if you end up playing in a Moysian (i.e. 4-3) fit, ♥ ruffs, if needed, will be taken in the shorter trump hand.

[han]

First we open our weaker and shorter "prepared" minor, then we support partner with 3 even though our agreement seems to be that it shows 4, and in the end partner bids blackwood and trivially bids a laydown grand. I think that there are multiple lessons available, but the strongest one must be that RKC is an awesome convention.

[billw55]

han, on 2012-April-13, 07:34, said:

First we open our weaker and shorter "prepared" minor, then we support partner with 3 even though our agreement seems to be that it shows 4, and in the end partner bids blackwood and trivially bids a laydown grand. I think that there are multiple lessons available, but the strongest one must be that RKC is an awesome convention.

And he even did it with two fast losers in diamonds, very stylish.

[aguahombre]

billw55, on 2012-April-13, 07:50, said:

And he even did it with two fast losers in diamonds, very stylish.

Or maybe he looked at his hand, and trusted that opener must have a diamond control to have catered to a possible slam try in response to the 3H ostensible game try.

The general concept that we should not use Wood with a worthless doubleton or with a void is a good thing. Sometimes we know it is o.k. to go against dogma.

[billw55]

aguahombre, on 2012-April-13, 08:43, said:

Or maybe he looked at his hand, and trusted that opener must have a diamond control to have catered to a possible slam try in response to the 3H ostensible game try.

The general concept that we should not use Wood with a worthless doubleton or with a void is a good thing. Sometimes we know it is o.k. to go against dogma.

Of course all rules have exceptions.

In this case, it seems to me that responder has a good alternative. 4♥ shows a control, the diamond situation by implication, and still allows opener to "wood" in this now obviously slammish auction, should he in fact hold a diamond control.

Is it wrong?

[aguahombre]

billw55, on 2012-April-13, 11:05, said:

Of course all rules have exceptions.

In this case, it seems to me that responder has a good alternative. 4♥ shows a control, the diamond situation by implication, and still allows opener to "wood" in this now obviously slammish auction, should he in fact hold a diamond control.

Is it wrong?

No, it isn't wrong. I just don't happen to believe East's Wood after 4C, having heard the auction, was as subject to ridicule as it might normally be in other situations with a worthless doubleton. West must have A-K-A or AQ-A in the minors in order to probe slam in a game-try auction.

[lalldonn]

Is there any way I can post a joke about east's wood being subject to ridicule without the moderators interfering? Must resist...

[phil_20686]

lalldonn, on 2012-April-13, 18:21, said:

Is there any way I can post a joke about east's wood being subject to ridicule without the moderators interfering? Must resist...

Is it really so hard to slip in an innuendo?