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Who should have bid 4 Spades? 2/1 ACBL
#1
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Posted 2012-March-22, 14:29
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Posted 2012-March-22, 14:33
West. I would bid 4♠, not 3♠. As little as KTxx of spades and out gives you some play for 10 tricks, and more than that gives you good play for 10 tricks.
Quite frankly, I might bid 4♠ on the East cards over partner's 3♠, but that is not as clear. West could have the same hand with Qx of hearts and AKQJ of diamonds and have minimal play for game.
Quite frankly, I might bid 4♠ on the East cards over partner's 3♠, but that is not as clear. West could have the same hand with Qx of hearts and AKQJ of diamonds and have minimal play for game.
#3
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Posted 2012-March-22, 14:43
I disagree completely. East should clearly bid 4♠. What else would he do after West splinters in hearts?
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#4
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Posted 2012-March-22, 14:44
Both should bid 4S imo.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
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Posted 2012-March-22, 15:01
kenrexford, on 2012-March-22, 14:43, said:
I disagree completely. East should clearly bid 4♠. What else would he do after West splinters in hearts?
Depends on opps methods, there's no reason why partner should only have one heart unless opps play support XX or something else that guarantees a 4th heart for 2♥.
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Posted 2012-March-22, 16:42
Cyberyeti, on 2012-March-22, 15:01, said:
Depends on opps methods, there's no reason why partner should only have one heart unless opps play support XX or something else that guarantees a 4th heart for 2♥.
You are missing my point. East does not infer a splinter, he hears one.
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#7
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Posted 2012-March-22, 16:52
Cyberyeti, on 2012-March-22, 15:01, said:
Depends on opps methods, there's no reason why partner should only have one heart unless opps play support XX or something else that guarantees a 4th heart for 2♥.
Ken suggests that West should have bid 4♥ instead of 3♠, then only east can bid 4♠. Which i agree.
I also agree with Han that, even if West bids only 3♠, East has a clear raise. Thus both underbid their hand.
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Posted 2012-March-22, 19:14
MrAce, on 2012-March-22, 16:52, said:
Ken suggests that West should have bid 4♥ instead of 3♠, then only east can bid 4♠. Which i agree.
I also agree with Han that, even if West bids only 3♠, East has a clear raise. Thus both underbid their hand.
I also agree with Han that, even if West bids only 3♠, East has a clear raise. Thus both underbid their hand.
Hate 4♥ unless you have some REALLY strong agreements about partner's X here. I know my partner won't always have 4 spades here, and I'd really rather not go beyond 3N just yet (Axx, Kxx, xxx, Axxx for example).
Fortunately I play lebensohl here so can bid the "staymanic without a stop" 3♥ showing exactly 4 spades.
#9
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Posted 2012-March-22, 21:50
West's hand is huge after the double and teh wimpy bid of 3S does it 0 justice.
The ♦ suit is 4 gaurenteed tricks, most likely 5, it's worth so much more than 10 points. Singleton in their fit is great, 4 smallish trumps is even better as those ♥ ruffs don't waste any trump strength.
i wouldn't be bidding 4S with west but a bid to show a great hand and a singleton ♥ (3h for eg) would be good, if partner just bid 3S or passed a 4H bid I'd still bid 4S.
West from East's POV is probably Ballanced - either 4243 or 4252 and not strong enough to open 1NT.
Having heard 3♠ East's flat ballanced hand of 8 points with xxx in ♥ opposite a non singleton (poor), xx opposite pards 3 or 4 card suit (not so great) and JTxx opposite 2 or 3 clubs (ok but not great) I'd probably pass too.
The ♦ suit is 4 gaurenteed tricks, most likely 5, it's worth so much more than 10 points. Singleton in their fit is great, 4 smallish trumps is even better as those ♥ ruffs don't waste any trump strength.
i wouldn't be bidding 4S with west but a bid to show a great hand and a singleton ♥ (3h for eg) would be good, if partner just bid 3S or passed a 4H bid I'd still bid 4S.
West from East's POV is probably Ballanced - either 4243 or 4252 and not strong enough to open 1NT.
Having heard 3♠ East's flat ballanced hand of 8 points with xxx in ♥ opposite a non singleton (poor), xx opposite pards 3 or 4 card suit (not so great) and JTxx opposite 2 or 3 clubs (ok but not great) I'd probably pass too.
#10
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Posted 2012-March-23, 01:27
The only way I can see missing this game is
1♦-1♥-(falls asleep), pass-2♥
x-p-(falls asleep), 2♠-p
p-p
Once east doubles, west has a clear game force, one west invites, east has a clear accept.
1♦-1♥-(falls asleep), pass-2♥
x-p-(falls asleep), 2♠-p
p-p
Once east doubles, west has a clear game force, one west invites, east has a clear accept.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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Posted 2012-March-23, 04:06
On a real bad day, you can bid and go down in 5 ♠, but there is no sensible auction to miss game.
As most others, I think both players are at fault, but I dislike easts pass much more then Wests jump to 3 ♠.
As most others, I think both players are at fault, but I dislike easts pass much more then Wests jump to 3 ♠.
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#12
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Posted 2012-March-23, 04:51
People must be making neg x's must more aggressively than I do if they think east has an obvious accept over 3S. For one thing are you not pretty much guaranteed two heart losers at this point?
Agree with ken that west should rebid 3H not 3S, also agree that west has a GF over dble. I basically feel like slam is still in the picture with the west cards.
Agree with ken that west should rebid 3H not 3S, also agree that west has a GF over dble. I basically feel like slam is still in the picture with the west cards.
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#13
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Posted 2012-March-23, 05:19
phil_20686, on 2012-March-23, 04:51, said:
People must be making neg x's must more aggressively than I do if they think east has an obvious accept over 3S. For one thing are you not pretty much guaranteed two heart losers at this point?
I think the double shows the same values as partner would assume in an uncontested auction, except that you don't have to bid with a hand that got worse or would have been sub-minimum in the first place. It could be as bad as A8xx xxx xx J10xx, for example.
East's actual hand, apart from being non-minimum, has no wastage in the opponents' suit. It's OK to lose two hearts if that solidifies the rest of the hand.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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Posted 2012-March-23, 05:48
Cyberyeti, on 2012-March-22, 19:14, said:
Hate 4♥ unless you have some REALLY strong agreements about partner's X here. I know my partner won't always have 4 spades here, and I'd really rather not go beyond 3N just yet (Axx, Kxx, xxx, Axxx for example).
Fortunately I play lebensohl here so can bid the "staymanic without a stop" 3♥ showing exactly 4 spades.
Fortunately I play lebensohl here so can bid the "staymanic without a stop" 3♥ showing exactly 4 spades.
Hmm. I play Lebensohl in similar auctions but not when we have opened the bidding. It's a good idea though.
Everyone else in this thread thinks that West can rely upon East to always deliver four spades. I don't think this method is playable; so I would have bid 1♠ as East.
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Posted 2012-March-23, 07:55
You need a poll choice for both. Probably some weighted choices. Personally I give 3/4 blame to west and 1/4 to east.
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#16
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Posted 2012-March-23, 09:11
gnasher, on 2012-March-23, 05:19, said:
I think the double shows the same values as partner would assume in an uncontested auction, except that you don't have to bid with a hand that got worse or would have been sub-minimum in the first place. It could be as bad as A8xx xxx xx J10xx, for example.
East's actual hand, apart from being non-minimum, has no wastage in the opponents' suit. It's OK to lose two hearts if that solidifies the rest of the hand.
East's actual hand, apart from being non-minimum, has no wastage in the opponents' suit. It's OK to lose two hearts if that solidifies the rest of the hand.
When i looked at this yesterday I somehow thought east was doubling at the two level.
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Posted 2012-March-23, 09:22
West has a 5 loser hand, that's too much to invite. West's choices for a rebid should have been between 3 ♥, 4 ♥, or 4 ♠. Of those, I like the 4 ♥ splinter the best. It's the most descriptive and possibly opens the way to slam if the opponent's have very aggressive with their overcall and raise.
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Posted 2012-March-23, 09:38
han, on 2012-March-22, 14:44, said:
Both should bid 4S imo.
Yes. I couldn't vote without that option. They both have perfect heart holdings and strength.
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Posted 2012-March-23, 17:33
I think 3♠ is enough with J-high of trumps. East should raise.
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Posted 2012-March-23, 17:36
bigbenvic, on 2012-March-22, 21:50, said:
West from East's POV is probably Ballanced - either 4243 or 4252 and not strong enough to open 1NT.
You either misread the auction or misunderstood the 3♠ bid. It does not show a weak notrump.