[arvie]

Kibitzing two friends in a teams game you see the following hand:

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This went three down, due to some bad splits 4♠ is the only game that makes.

After 3♥ they had no further agreements. How to proceed and make the decision between 3NT and 4♠ (or maybe even 4♥)?

In practice North took 3♠ as cuebid and forward going for a ♣ slam. And from there the bidding went astray. But even if you think 3♠ is natural should North bid 3NT in case he has something like x AKQxx Jx AQxxx?

It seems difficult to bid the South hand in a Gazzilli structure. Anyone a solution?


Edit: ♦ slam was edited in ♣ slam.

[ArtK78]

It seems to me (as someone who does not play Gazzilli) that responder should have bid 3♠, not 3♣, over 2NT. Responder was obligated to bid 2♦ over 2♣ to show game forcing values assuming that the 2♣ bid was based on the big hand. But responder should break the relay sequence as soon as possible to show 6 spades and a minimum game forcing hand.

Over 3♠, North can make another move. 6♠ is not an absurd contract, and it would have a lot of play if South had a better spade suit. For example, if South had KQJxxx xx Axx xx, slam would be very reasonable.

[mike777]

Yes break the relay,,,if 2d is 8+ then 3s over 2nt would show 6s and 8+..then south can sign off with nothing extra.
I grant north has extras and may push on in spades over a sign off.

[bluecalm]

The problem is that with this particular version of Gazilli if you break the realy by 3S then you don't know opener's 2nd suit which might be crucial piece of information if you hear 3N over your 3S.

I think the bidding was reasonable up to 4S. Why N jumped to 5N now is mystery to me. He already said he has extras with two spades by bidding 4♦ imo.
Passing 5N was probably panic mode thing unless you play 5N natural there which I doubt.

[ArtK78]

 bluecalm, on 2012-March-17, 12:06, said:

The problem is that with this particular version of Gazilli if you break the realy by 3S then you don't know opener's 2nd suit which might be crucial piece of information if you hear 3N over your 3S.

I think the bidding was reasonable up to 4S. Why N jumped to 5N now is mystery to me. He already said he has extras with two spades by bidding 4♦ imo.
Passing 5N was probably panic mode thing unless you play 5N natural there which I doubt.

I don't see why that is a problem. Opener is the captain on this auction. He knows what his second suit is. As long as he gets information from responder he should be able to place the contract.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I don't see why that is a problem. Opener is the captain on this auction. He knows what his second suit is. As long as he gets information from responder he should be able to place the contract.

Why would he be the captain ? He is the hand which describes itself, if anyone responder is the captain here but I don't really buy much into captain concept anyway.
The problem is this: let's say opener has 6-1-4-2 distribution. If we assume he needs to break the relay with that hand he will hear 3N on either: 1-5-2-5 or 1-5-5-2 as bidding anything else could easily be disaster as opener doesn't know anything about minor suit distribution of responder. Now responder needs to know if we belong to 3N or in 5/6m and for that he needs to know opener's 2nd suit.
In other words you need to convey information about spade fit at/below 3N level to make reasonable decisions and for that you can't break the relay after 2N.

[mike777]

I dont play Gazzilli so I guess I need to defer but it seems you do want south to describe and north be captain.

It seems south really gets to show her hand by breaking the relay...around 8 hcp....6s minimum no slam interest.

I assume north has a way to make a slm try in spades over 3s and if she wants again over 4s by south.

[manudude03]

All this stuff about south breaking the relay isn't that important. Since responder has spades, he will never be cramped out of the suit. Opener should realise that he is bare minimum for what he has shown and pass 4S, especially when it looks like it may be a 5-2 fit.

[Zelandakh]

What would a 3♠ rebid mean over 2♣? I do not play Gazzilli but I had thought this showed about 9 points or so and 6+ spades.

[mgoetze]

Personally I think South should just suck it up and bid 3NT instead of 3♠. South has a minimum and, so far, quite a misfit. Having said that, "In practice North took 3♠ as cuebid and forward going for a ♦ slam" sounds ridiculous to me even assuming a ♣ slam was meant rather than a ♦ slam.

Zel, do you want to play 3♠ facing x AQTxx xxx KQxx? Because that would be a perfectly normal hand for North's 2♣ bid.

[nige1]

arvie asks "Kibitzing two friends in a teams game you see the following hand: This went three down, due to some bad splits 4♠ is the only game that makes. After 3♥ they had no further agreements. How to proceed and make the decision between 3NT and 4♠ (or maybe even 4♥)?"

IMO the auction is an advert for Gazzilli up to 4♠. Then North's 5N = 60%. South's final pass = 40%.

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]

[Zelandakh]

 mgoetze, on 2012-March-20, 19:34, said:

Zel, do you want to play 3♠ facing x AQTxx xxx KQxx? Because that would be a perfectly normal hand for North's 2♣ bid.

Absolutely not! But that suggests to me that I probably have the wrong meaning for the 3♠ rebid. It was a genuine question since I have never played it. Perhaps it should show an invitational (11ish) hand with 2♦ followed by 2♠ over 2♥ showing 8-10? I am sure some posters more familiar with Gazzilli can come in with the standard meaning and why this would be a bad idea.

In any case, if South's bidding showed ~8-10 then North clearly overbid. If South cannot have this hand (because it is shown by an immediate 3♠ anyway) then one can have a little more sympathy for North's position. The 5NT bid does seem to come rather from nowhere though. The main problem I have with 3♣ followed by 3♠ by South is that I am not sure it can be showing 6 spades. What would South do with 5242 and 4 small diamonds? If it has to be used as a grope sometimes then 3♠ over 2NT looks more attractive.

[mgoetze]

 Zelandakh, on 2012-March-21, 02:36, said:

Absolutely not! But that suggests to me that I probably have the wrong meaning for the 3♠ rebid. It was a genuine question since I have never played it.

For me 3♠ doesn't exist. 2♦ shows all 8+ hands, everything else shows 7-, and those 7- hands in no case bid higher than 3♦.

[arvie]

 mgoetze, on 2012-March-20, 19:34, said:

Personally I think South should just suck it up and bid 3NT instead of 3♠. South has a minimum and, so far, quite a misfit. Having said that, "In practice North took 3♠ as cuebid and forward going for a ♦ slam" sounds ridiculous to me even assuming a ♣ slam was meant rather than a ♦ slam.

Zel, do you want to play 3♠ facing x AQTxx xxx KQxx? Because that would be a perfectly normal hand for North's 2♣ bid.

Yes, you are of course right. I meant ♣ slam.

[arvie]

 mgoetze, on 2012-March-21, 04:54, said:

For me 3♠ doesn't exist. 2♦ shows all 8+ hands, everything else shows 7-, and those 7- hands in no case bid higher than 3♦.

It seems to me that you can use 3♠ if it's GF against the weak hand and very descriptive. Something like a SI hand with 5/6(good)♠3♥.

[bluecalm]

Quote

For me 3♠ doesn't exist. 2♦ shows all 8+ hands, everything else shows 7-, and those 7- hands in no case bid higher than 3♦.

One problem hand is game forcing with heart support.
If it goes:
1H - 1S
2C - 2D
2H - you need some forcing bid here and nothing is comfortable.

This is why Lauria-Versace play:
1H - 1S
2C - 3H as GF with ♥ support making:

1H - 1S
2C - 2D
2H - 3H an invite ( I guess).