[Trinidad]

gwnn, on 2013-August-20, 04:05, said:

It's a very small peeve, don't worry about it. I usually find much better reasons to be peeved at other people's posts

I think it's the same as 'the United States of America' or 'the United States' (since it is a plural, the definite article must precede it, you can't say 'I am from United States' or 'I love/hate those great/damn United States'). For what it's worth, government.nl and some style guides also use a small 't,' but I admit most Dutch people seem to like a capitalised 'The.'

Well, this may have to do with the Dutch spelling rule that names start with a capital. As an example, we all know Vincent van Gogh (small "van" in Dutch spelling). However, when we omit his first name, and call him "mister Van Gogh" instead, it is correct to spell "Van" with a capital since now it is the start of the name.

Rik

[gwnn]

From http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-18233844

In (for example) the CIA World Factbook they recommend using 'the Netherlands' and 'the Congo' but 'The Bahamas' and 'The Gambia'. huh.

[barmar]

There are a bunch of roads around Boston with ideosyncratic names like this: The Fenway, The Arborway, The Riverway.

[Trinidad]

gwnn, on 2013-August-20, 12:38, said:

From http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-18233844

In (for example) the CIA World Factbook they recommend using 'the Netherlands' and 'the Congo' but 'The Bahamas' and 'The Gambia'. huh.

In fact, they recommend not using an article at all: "Netherlands".

If they do that, they might just as well drop the plural 's' and make it "Netherland", just like Scotland, Ireland and Maryland. After all, that is equivalent to the country's name in Dutch: "Nederland", no article and singular.

My knowledge of languages is limited, but in the languages that I know (with the exception of Dutch) the country's name is a plural with a definite article:
Die Niederlande (German)
Les Pays-Bas (French)
Nederländerna (Swedish, where the suffix "-na" functions as the plural definite article. Definite articles in Swedish come as a suffix to the noun.)

I think it is complicated enough with two variations. I don't like the CIA's idea of creating a third. Furthermore, I don't really regard the CIA as an authority on English spelling.

Rik

[mike777]

not sure what the question is but


the CIA must be an authority on English. if not then who?

If you think the CIA is idiot ok....that is issue.

[gwnn]

@mike777: It is one authority among others, for sure. It is not the authority. I think government.nl should be a pretty important authority on what the country it governs is called in English, but it is also not the ultimate one.

@Trinidad: I now see that I misread the BBC article, sorry. Are you saying that you are also capitalising the german 'Die' in 'Die Niederlanden'? I have never seen that form before (nor the French one but I rarely see French texts).

[Trinidad]

gwnn, on 2013-August-21, 02:59, said:

Are you saying that you are also capitalising the german 'Die' in 'Die Niederlanden'? I have never seen that form before (nor the French one but I rarely see French texts).

No, I don't, but that is because the German spelling rules that I learnt specifically told me that I shouldn't.

My English (American) dictionary¹ tells me that I should capitalize proper names. It doesn't list the/The Netherlands (or any other country where an article is part of the name), but under Places it mentions "the South".

However, under Titles of publications it says that "the" needs to be capitalized if it is part of the name. The examples are: "The Wall Street Journal" and "the New York Daily News". The same rule can be found under courts: "The Supreme Court of the United States" and "the United States Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit".

My interpretation of all this is that in any name that starts with "the" "the" should be capitalized. But if someone who knows these things tells me otherwise, I will change that interpretation. It's not like my life depends on this question.

Rik

¹The American Heritage Dictionary, Second College Edition (1982) p. 55-57

[GreenMan]

The CIA is an authority on the things it investigates. Capitalization of articles in English is largely a matter of style, and that is not the CIA's area of expertise. Its publications will tell you what the CIA's style is (most likely following the federal government's own stylebook, but don't quote me on that) but not what others do.

Capitalizing "the" before names in English is a hodgepodge of inherited fashions and accidents of history that got entered into various reference books somewhere years ago, and different style manuals tell you different things. (Similarly with "(the) Netherlands" vs. "Scotland" and so on.) About the only real "rule" is to try for some sort of consistency.

[blackshoe]

The Chicago Manual of Style says it should be "the Netherlands".

[Trinidad]

blackshoe, on 2013-August-21, 10:44, said:

The Chicago Manual of Style says it should be "the Netherlands".

My Webster Ideal Dictionary has a list of country names. It says the country is called "Netherlands". I personally find it horribly ugly to refer to a specific plural and not use an article.

But I guess anything is better than calling it "Holland" (though the spelling would be easier).

Rik

[helene_t]

Well, since there is only one Nederland but two provinces called Holland, it would be more appropriate to call the country "The Hollands".

[barmar]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-21, 01:14, said:

I don't really regard the CIA as an authority on English spelling.

They said this comes from a number of sources, then listed three of them by name, the CIA World Factbook being just one of them.

[Trinidad]

barmar, on 2013-August-21, 13:09, said:

Trinidad, on 2013-August-21, 01:14, said:

I don't really regard the CIA as an authority on English spelling.

They said this comes from a number of sources, then listed three of them by name, the CIA World Factbook being just one of them.

That is true, but the other two that were mentioned were not really great linguistic works or institutions either, were they?

I would like someone with a good knowledge of the English language (and not geography) explain to me how you can refer to a specific set of something without a definite article.

When I am building something and I ask one of my kids to hand me "the screws", he will know that I specifically mean those 1/8"x1.5" screws that are right next to him and that we bought together for this project. He will not go to my garage and get me some random screws. And when I ask him to get "screws", he will go to the garage and come back with a few small, medium and large screws. (He might even ask, while pointing at the 1/8"x1.5" screws: "Why are these not ok, dad?".)

We are not dealing with nether lands in general or some random nether lands (e.g. those in Louisiana or Bangladesh). We are specifically dealing with The Netherlands ("Aha! Those by the North Sea!"). If I am in Australia and say that I live in "Netherlands", that should provoke the reply "Ooooh, that sounds like a flood risk, mate. In which nether lands do you live? I hope it is those by the North Sea. They at least have dikes around them.". While if I say that I live in "The Netherlands" that should provoke a discussion about windmills and tulips and not about the dangers of living low or alligators.

Rik

[gwnn]

Trinidad, would you also refer to the US as 'in The United States'? What is the difference? Nobody says 'I am from Netherlands' but also nobody 'I am from United States.' If you use the latter, maybe they think you are from Mexico or something (well no but neither would people really think you're from Bangladesh if you omit the article, they would just think you forgot it). The names of both countries are inevitably preceded by the definite article. Regardless of whether you think the definite article is part of the name or if it just has to precede the name, it will precede the word itself. Anyway, the rules of English are mostly defined by usage and the small 't' seems to be preferred by native writers who know what they are doing.

All English publications I've looked at (The Times, The Guardian, BBC online) seem to use 'the Netherlands' but they do not specify a rule. The Guardian has a style guide which specifically say that you should use a small t. The Dutch embassies in the US and the UK also use a small t.

In the other camp I see the British School in The Netherlands (it's capped also in texts), the Alcoholics Anonymous group and many such sites (local groups of some global organisation), but still probably a minority.

As a compromise, in one spelling guide (which I can't find now, I will copy the link later) they advise to use a small 't' inside texts but a capital T in addresses. Nice.

[Trinidad]

So, it seems that the experts are divided but that there is a majority for a small "t" in "the Netherlands". I can try to adapt to that. But I am wondering how far we are going to take this? Would anybody ever spell The Hague ("The Hedge") with a small "t" or suggest that "The" is not part of the name? Brrr...

If it were up to me the country would simply be called "Netherland" (or even simpler: "Nederland").

Rik

[barmar]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-22, 01:17, said:

That is true, but the other two that were mentioned were not really great linguistic works or institutions either, were they?

True. But one is an atlas, and the other is from the State Department. I wouldn't use them as authorities on grammar, but they do seem like appropriate places for geographic and geopolitical information. The preferred way to refer to a foreign country is more a question of protocol and tradition than linguistics.

[Trinidad]

barmar, on 2013-August-22, 08:05, said:

True. But one is an atlas, and the other is from the State Department. I wouldn't use them as authorities on grammar, but they do seem like appropriate places for geographic and geopolitical information. The preferred way to refer to a foreign country is more a question of protocol and tradition than linguistics.

Normally, I would say that is true. These would be good sources to check the name of say ... Myanmar.

But to decide whether "I live in the Netherlands." or "I live in The Netherlands." is the correct spelling, I would rely on a source that understands English, particularly since "the Netherlands" actually is an English phrase with a meaning (just like "The Wall Street Journal" and unlike Myanmar or Italy).

Rik

[blackshoe]

Upthread I mentioned The Chicago Manual of Style. At some point that book refers the reader, for geographical names, to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of Geographical Names (that's from memory; don't shoot me if I got it wrong). I suppose that's an acceptable authority.

[barmar]

Although a country name might be a phrase with a meaning (like "the United States of America"), they have generally become idiomized. So you can't really rely on rules for ordinary phrases when determining the proper orthography of a country name. It's truly arbitrary, and just depends on tradition.

This is, in fact, true of most names. We had a discussion a few years ago about whether it should be "ACBL" or "the ACBL". Which one seems more natural depends on how it's being used in the sentence, and may differ from how you'd say it if you used the full name "American Contract Bridge League" (I'd use the article when referring to it as the subject or object in a sentence, but not when using it as a modifier, as in "American Contract Bridge League regulations say...").

[GreenMan]

Trinidad, on 2013-August-22, 01:17, said:

I would like someone with a good knowledge of the English language (and not geography) explain to me how you can refer to a specific set of something without a definite article.

Already done.

GreenMan, on 2013-August-21, 09:11, said:

Capitalizing "the" before names in English is a hodgepodge of inherited fashions and accidents of history that got entered into various reference books somewhere years ago, and different style manuals tell you different things. (Similarly with "(the) Netherlands" vs. "Scotland" and so on.) About the only real "rule" is to try for some sort of consistency.