[gwnn]

As a further step in my naturalisation process I think I would like to try my partner's system which he calls Dutch Doubleton or Orange Club (I am not sure which is which, I pretend I understand Dutch but in reality maybe only 50% comes through):

1♣: 11-13/17-19 balanced OR 11+ with clubs OR 17+ unbalanced
1♦: 4+ unbalanced 11-16
1♥: 5+ unbalanced 11-16
1♠: 5+ unbalanced 11-16
1NT: 14-16
2♣: both majors weak OR 20-22/25+ bal
2♦: one major weak OR 23-24 bal
2♥/2♠: I forgot! maybe Muiderberg?
2NT: both minors weak or very strong.

Is this a real system? If so, is there a description somewhere online?

[helene_t]

"Oranje Klaveren" is basically wj with a few extra things such as inversion of 1M in response to 1♦. "Orange Club" is something else but obviously "Oranje Klaveren" is sometimes translated as "Orange Club".

"Dutch Doubleton" is similar to normal 2/1 except that 1♣ is forcing (or semiforcing, for some pairs) with polish-like followups. However, the strong unbalanced hands still open 2♣. 1♣ contains only a few very strong hands: semi-gf with clubs, and maybe some 4441 monsters.

So this system shouldn't be called orange club or dutch doubleton. Your p should make up a new name for a new system.

[bluecalm]

Yeah, this is wj (polish club) in version now popular in Poland.
One big leak of this system are 15+pc unbalanced hands with clubs. In most common Polish club version it's solved by adding awful 2C precision opener (allowing for 5c-4M) so 1C - 1M - 2C is forcing one round. Many pairs these days in POland plays this 2C = majors opener which confused the hell of opponents usually.

Overall this is nice, playable structure with a lot of room for gadgets in middle bidding if you fancy.

[gwnn]

bluecalm,

-doesn't the 1♣ die in competition?
-do you still need a negative freebid after 1♣-(some crap)-?
-my partner had in his description something like 1♣-1♦ = natural or relay and 1♣-1M=5+ cards, is that ok or is it better to have 1♣-1M 4+?

[bluecalm]

Quote

-doesn't the 1♣ die in competition?

Well... it looks like it should die but it somehow doesn't.
Sure, sometimes you are in awful spot. You need to learn some new tricks like for example:

1C - 2S - dbl - pass
???

And now you bid 2NT with every 12-14 without 4 hearts, regardless of spade holding, even xx Axx Axxx KQxx

Quote

-do you still need a negative freebid after 1♣-(some crap)-?

I don't know about "need" but everybody in Poland plays NFB and I learnt bridge playing them and I think they are superior to "standard" style. These days though many pairs play transfers, especially after intervention at 1level.
Most people here play natural with new suit forcing at 3level/non-forcing at 2level after 2level and higher intervention. It's playable style imo but introducing some more tranfers is better.
I don't have that much experience without 2C precision opener. It's surely more difficult without it but the hope is 2C majors brings a lot of fruit on itself (which might be true vs unprepared opponents).

Quote

my partner had in his description something like 1♣-1♦ = natural or relay and 1♣-1M=5+ cards, is that ok or is it better to have 1♣-1M 4+?

In Poland it's standard to play:
1D = 0-7any or 8-11minors (or sometimes some strong hand)
1M = 4+, (7)8+pc' I have no clue what so over how the thing with 1M = 5+works so no comments.

[gnasher]

Isn't this called "Oonbespeelbaar Klaveren"?

[gwnn]

:-)

[gwnn]

gnasher didn't you play something like this at some point? 1c= natural or strong?

[gnasher]

Yes, I still do, but the strong hands that open 1♣ are game-forcing. It was quite hard to get that to a point where we considered it playable; I don't see how you can do it at all when the strong hands start at any 17-count.

[kaltstart]

 bluecalm, on 2012-January-12, 05:46, said:

Yeah, this is wj (polish club) in version now popular in Poland.
One big leak of this system are 15+pc unbalanced hands with clubs. In most common Polish club version it's solved by adding awful 2C precision opener (allowing for 5c-4M) so 1C - 1M - 2C is forcing one round. Many pairs these days in POland plays this 2C = majors opener which confused the hell of opponents usually.

Overall this is nice, playable structure with a lot of room for gadgets in middle bidding if you fancy.

I´d really like to learn about ways how to handle those 15+hcp hands unbalanced with clubs if playing this way. In case, 2C rebid is forcing how are the further bids defined? The pair Smirnov-Pikarek also seem to have a way to handle this problem. Any informations about it would be much appreciated.

[antonylee]

I am playing WJ05 now, so if you want to learn about 1♣-1M-2♣ forcing, 15+ 5+♣ unbal w/o a 4cM or 18+ 5+♣ unbal I can recommend you the booklet by Jassem (first link on Google if you search for Wspolny Jezyk 2005). On the other hand I would be interested about how you handle grafting all club-based hands into 1♣ (in order to put 2♣ to some other use). I guess you can keep 1♣-1♦-2♣ as 15+ forcing, occasionally bidding a 2-crd ♥ suit with a minimum 2=2=3=6 (by the way is it worth "sacrificing" the definition of the 1♣-1♦-1♥ rebid in order to have 1♣-1♦-1♠ guarantee 4?), but what about 1♣-1M-2♣? Does 1♣-1M-3♣ becomes 16+ (forcing?)? Also, how does that affect competitive auctions, where responder cannot expect support for all suits anymore?

[bluecalm]

Quote

I´d really like to learn about ways how to handle those 15+hcp hands unbalanced with clubs if playing this way. In case, 2C rebid is forcing how are the further bids defined? The pair Smirnov-Pikarek also seem to have a way to handle this problem. Any informations about it would be much appreciated.

Very basic standard system in Poland:
2D = any GF without other bid
2H/2S/2NT/3C = weak (which is 7-9) natural bids.
3D/3H/3S = game forcing 5-5 (but some people play this as weak, so be careful, it's better to play them as GF though)

Some things worth considering:
1C - 1M
3C = 5C-4D, 18+pc; this is useful as hands with 5C-4D are difficult to bid and this way:

1C - 1M
2C - 2D
3D is exactly 15-17.

This is playable and nice. It has some leaks like for example:

1C - 1S
2C - 2S
???? you have 2-3-2-6 or something here and you have no convnenient forcing bid. It's not too bad problem though (because it's rare)

Some people reverse 2D and other bids making 2D the only negative. I have no idea which way is better, the standard way is the one I described.

[bluecalm]

If 2C opener is majors then:

1C - 1M
2C is wide range but not forcing (11-16hcp). It sucks, you could try to make less painful but it will suck nevertheless. The hope is 2C majors is such a killer that it will give you enough matchpoints to compensate.

[glen]

 bluecalm, on 2012-January-17, 13:55, said:

... 2NT = weak (which is 7-9) natural bid ...

that would be fun

[bluecalm]

It's not bad, your side has 22+hcp. You need a bid like that with KJxx QTxx xxx xx or something.
You could reverse the whole structure to have all the weak hands in 2D (as some pairs do) but standard agreement is quite playable.
In polish club 1/1 is quite constructive, dunno about "dutch doubleton" though.

[han]

 gnasher, on 2012-January-12, 12:08, said:

Isn't this called "Oonbespeelbaar Klaveren"?

For Csaba's benefit that would be "onspeelbare klaveren". Onbespeelbare klaveren would sooner mean the opposite, that it is impossible to play against this system.

[antonylee]

Coming back to the discussion about Polish, I guess I can put all 12-14 club-based hands into 1♣ while keeping 1♣-1suit-2♣, in the following fashion:

• (322)6 and (331)6 hands are treated as (332)5, rebidding the 3crd major (2crd if 2236, that sucks but so be it) over 1♦ and 1N over 1M,
  
• xx46 hands are treated as xx45 hands (open 1♦ in our system of Siege diamond, and make some specialized rebid),
  
• (4x)x6 hands open 1♣ and rebid 1M over 1♦ (or 1♠ over 1♥), the only problem coming from the x4x6 hands over the 1♠ response (either bid 1N, or upgrade to a reverse, which is less a crime in a limited openings system I guess),
  
• 7crd club suits either downgrade to a preempt or upgraded to 15+ (with a treatment as balanced possible if 2227).

I know that feels like a horrible plug, but does anyone have any opinion about how this could turn out?

The point of this being of course to use 2♣ as some sort of preempt (in ACBL-land: 8-11 balanced, 4+♣).

[Zelandakh]

If you are jumping through all of those hoops just to get a bid for 8-11 point balanced hands would it not be simpler to just play a mini-NT and put the 15-17 balanced hands through 1♦? If you specifically needed 2♣ as a preempt then I would again be looking at throwing a few hands into the 1♦ opening to take some pressure off 1♣. If 1♦ has to be nebulous, or even 0+, in order to accomplish that then this is the price to pay. But just throwing all the 10-14 club-based hands into 1♣ does not strike me as very sensible - "10+ clubs, 12-14 balanced, or 18+ any" is just too many hand types.

[antonylee]

I would have thought the same (that there are too many hand types), but previous posters seemed to think otherwise; however I am trying not to lose 1♣-1M-2♣ as forcing, hence these loops.

[kaltstart]

Usually when playing polish club, I am playing WJ2005. With one partner, though, I compromised on the following approach:
1♣: any balanced 12-14 or 18-22 hand, nat unbalanced or any "semiforcing hand", i.e. what would be opened 2♣in SEF
1♦: like in WJ2000, which I really like, by the way, i.e. 4+ unbal. or bal. with 5♦s
1M: 5+, 11-19hcp
1NT: 15-17 bal.
2♣: any game force/23+hcp
other 2 openers like in WJ2005

Of course, 1♣ opener is a bit overloaded. Until now we hadn´t many problems, but knowing about a way how to handle the nat. unbal. variant was therefore the reason I asked. We have been playing 1♣-1x-2♣ very wide-ranging up until now, so semi-forcing, if you will, just like bluecalm mentioned in one of his posts. Thank you for your help, by the way, bluecalm.

I also mentioned the pair in the German open team who play a Polish club variant (Baltic Club),in which the 2♣ opener is reserved for a weak 2-suiter (♥+another), so they must also handle the hands which would open 2♣ in other PC variants within the 1♣ opener. I guess, they do so similar as bluecalm described...