[daveharty]

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 13:48, said:

That way u like to bid over t/o doubles seems ok and may work many times but not against me .
Nevertheless, i'm a bit confused: so u bid 4♥ with Axx AQJxxx xx xx?
And with xx KJxxxx x Jxxx? Or xx Kxxxxxx x kxx?
Same bid for such different types of hands?
So u may lose more points than me, who simply bid 1♥ with 4 cards and 8-10 hcps .

I'm not sure where you got the idea I would bid 4H with either the second or third of your example hands. I think it's a reasonable bid with the third hand, but I wouldn't even consider it with the second.

The way I like to bid over takeout doubles, at least with regards to 10 point hands with a four card major, is pretty standard.

EDIT: I just noticed that the club suit in your third example hand was Kxx, not xxx (the lower case "k" threw me). In that case, I would bid 4H. But the reason I would do it with that hand as well as the first hand is that I expect 4H to be the best contract a large majority of the time.

[vianu2]

Ok so with xx KJxxxx x Jxxx u won't bid 4♥.Do u bid 3♥ or 2♥?
Now u have your jxx qjxx kx kxxx 10 count now u bid 2♥?

Or qx kjxx xxx kqjx this is 2 or 3♥?
Strange but i think when ill get a hand like that, the opener will be very silent after his opening so why do i bother to jump?

[daveharty]

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 15:23, said:

Ok so with xx KJxxxx x Jxxx u won't bid 4♥.Do u bid 3♥ or 2♥?
Now u have your jxx qjxx kx kxxx 10 count now u bid 2♥?

Or qx kjxx xxx kqjx this is 2 or 3♥?
Strange but i think when ill get a hand like that, the opener will be very silent after his opening so why do i bother to jump?

On the off chance you are seriously interested in what I would bid with these hands, I will oblige you. If you are simply needling me, trying to point out some perceived inconsistency, I will still oblige you.

xx KJxxxx x Jxxx
I would bid 3H under most conditions. I think the shape is right, and it's only a Milton or two short of being perfect.

Jxx QJxx Kx Kxxx
Yes, I would bid 2H. What else? I am fully aware that this isn't a great 10 count, and the the actual value of the diamond king could range from "full" to "zero". I don't consider 1H an egregious underbid with this particular hand. But do you expect your partner to move over 1H with AT9x ATxx x QJxx?

Qx KJxx xxx KQJx
I trust you aren't seriously suggesting that 1H is the proper bid with this hand. If you are, then I would ask that you kindly share some of whatever you are smoking, and I would only add that I'm glad it's you and not me who has to explain your +230 to your teammates when your partner puts down AJxx ATxx x Axxx.

[vianu2]

Eh eh.
I didnt suggest 1♥ bid as i asked if u bid 2 or 3 But u said u won't cuebid 2♦ unless u have shortness etc etc so what do u bid if no 2♦)) 2,3,4?
I will add that it never happened to me , to get 230 and i tell u why: when u have 20+ count opps have themselves some hcps and they feel frustrated to defend 1♥

[daveharty]

vianu2, on 2011-August-01, 17:34, said:

But u said u won't cuebid 2♦ unless u have shortness

Huh? I never said any such thing. I said that I would cuebid: 1) with equal length in the majors and an invitational or better hand; or 2) with a game-forcing hand without clear direction that wants more information, or 3) with a hand that is interested in slam. I would cuebid with your third example hand, planning on raising a heart bid from partner or finding out if partner had a diamond stopper if he bid spades. We might land in hearts, notrump, or even clubs.

I think you are referring to the example hand that Phil constructed, where I said I would cuebid with Axx AQJxxx xxx x, but not with Axx AQJxxx xx xx. As I said, the reason was that with the first hand, it's easy to imagine partner with a perfect minimum takeout double that makes slam a favorite, e.g. KJxx Kxxx x Axxx, while the second hand needs more from partner. But I certainly didn't say that I would never cuebid unless I had shortness.

EDIT: And I will also add that relying on the opponents to keep the auction alive when you and your partner have stopped at the one level on 25+ hcp is not a dependable strategy.

[nige1]

nige1, on 2011-July-31, 22:04, said:

IMO 5♥ = 10, P = 8, X = 6. Partner did not cue ♦, so probably has long ♥.

daveharty, on 2011-August-01, 09:04, said:

The way I learned responses to takeout doubles--and a quick Google search of "responding to takeout doubles" suggests that this is standard--a single jump response shows 9-11 (does NOT promise a fifth trump), a double jump shows 6-8 points with a six-card suit, and a jump to game shows 12+ "dummy points". This last point is why I disagree with nige1's assessment; I don't believe partner's failure to cuebid indicates anything in particular beyond the conviction that 4H is the best contract. The way I learned it, a cuebid in response to a takeout double could be a couple of different things: an invitational or better hand with equal length in both majors, interested in finding the best major fit; OR, a game-forcing hand with no clear direction, that wants to find out more information before deciding on a final contract (it might want to leave open the option of 3NT if partner only has three cards in our four card major or something). Rarely, it could also be a single-suited hand interested in slam, but that is pretty remote. Partner doesn't automatically cuebid if he knows what the best contract is likely to be. For example, why should a hand like xx/QJxxxx/Ax/Axx cuebid? Doesn't 4H rate to be the best contract opposite a normal takeout double? Why not bid it and put maximum pressure on the opponents?

Like Dave, I was taught that, with four card support for one of the doubler's presumed suits, you should limit-raise. For example after (1♦) _X (_P) ??

• 1♥ = Natural limit. 4+♥. 0-7.
• 2♥ = Ditto. 8-9.
• 3♥ = Ditto. 10-11.
• 4♥ = Ditto. 12+.

I've revised that opinion, for low-level auctions. If you have the luxury of bidding space, you may as well use it, reserving jumps for more pre-emptive hands.

A cue-bid seems an efficient way of showing most hands with the high-card values for game, even with four cards in some of partner's putative suits. If partner has a mountain or if opponents compete then you allow partner to exercise better judgement.

Nevertheless, I agree with Dave that, when you fear competition, it is often tactically right to jump, with a long suit, even with a good hand. For example 4♥ seems reasonable with
♠ x ♥ KQJxxx ♦ Axxx ♣ xx.

More controversially, I like constructive notrump advances with system-on after partner's double:

• 1N = Natural Flat. May have 4-card major. 8-10.
• 2N = Ditto. 11-12.

[mck4711]

It seems to be a topic on that people have (totally) different opinions.

1. First I want to apologize. I made a small mistake when describing the problem first, I wrote 4C instead of 4H. 4H is correct.

2. Googling "responses after take out double" you get plenty of answers. And many of them are not consistent.
Here are some examples:
http://www.jazclass....bridge/br14.htm
10-12 points: jumbid with 4+cards
13+: bid game or cue-bid

http://web2.acbl.org...keoutdouble.pdf
12+ points: cuebid
three-level-jump: long suit, good playing strength, but less than game values

http://www.bridgeguy...eoutDouble.html
Higher Suit responses, eg 1C-X-p- 3H/4H: These bids signify at least a 6-card plus suit in length and enough strength to presumably make the contract with the minimum held by the Doubler. These bids are not forcing, but strongly suggest the placement of the final contract, regardless of the holdings of the Doubler.

3. Having said this - and looking at the replies -, I am concluding that this bidding is a great guessing "grey-area-zone" for any partnership that doesnt have an agreement. Is there anything that can be considered as standard? NT-responses and cuebids - ok; but (high) jumps? It comes down to partnership-agreements!

4. Two interesting questions are: whose hand is it? and who is the boss of the action?

5. P had xx, QJxxxx, xx, AJx

6. I doubled, final contract was 5Dx

[vianu2]

Do u make 5♥?
Did he make? If he got -2 then he was insane bidding 5♦.

[mck4711]

vianu2, on 2011-August-02, 03:09, said:

Do u make 5♥?
Did he make? If he got -2 then he was insane bidding 5♦.

5♦ is down 2

[daveharty]

mck4711, on 2011-August-02, 02:47, said:

...
3. Having said this - and looking at the replies -, I am concluding that this bidding is a great guessing "grey-area-zone" for any partnership that doesnt have an agreement. Is there anything that can be considered as standard? NT-responses and cuebids - ok; but (high) jumps? It comes down to partnership-agreements!

4. Two interesting questions are: whose hand is it? and who is the boss of the action?

5. P had xx, QJxxxx, xx, AJx

6. I doubled, final contract was 5Dx

Quite true about partnership agreements. There are many bidding sequences that are not so "set in stone" that you couldn't come up with reasonable (if possibly inferior) meanings for them, and it's better to be playing slightly inferior methods that both partners know well than to be playing theoretically superior methods that one or both partners keeps forgetting or that they haven't discussed in depth.

Re. your questions in 4., the "boss" of the auction is the one who has the more complete information about the combined assets of the partnership. On this particular hand, your first question about hand ownership is closely related to this, because if your responses to the takeout double are fairly tightly defined, then the doubler will know which side "owns" the hand. I personally would have bid 3H with partner's hand, but I do think it's pretty maximum for that bid, and not too far off from what I would expect for a 4H bid from my partner.

As for vianu2's comment, we shouldn't evaluate the sanity or wisdom of a call based on the results of one particular hand. I agree that bidding 5D at the prevailing vulnerability was probably suspect, but unless we know what opener's hand was it's hard to judge.