[kayin801]

We play a variable NT, 10-12 in 1st/2nd w/r and 14-16 all others.

We had an auction the other day (last board of a late online session) where I accidentally opened a balanced 16 count in 2nd seat 1NT. My partner responded 2H (on a pleasant 11 count) which was a signoff, and there should be no way whatsoever that I could pull this. I was still in strong NT mode though, so I bid 2S. Partner passed this and we made 9 tricks in our 4-2 fit. Whoops. Partner was as confused as I was when dummy came down.

My 2S bid should tell partner that I actually have 14-16, as I shouldn't be able to pull 2H if I had a 10-12 hand (psyches withstanding).

A few questions/scenarios:
1) My partner figures from my 2S bid that I messed up. Is he allowed to take another bid or try to place the contract (at his own risk, of course)?
2a) Suppose I realize I messed up after my 2S bid and my partner takes another bid. Am I obligated to behave in any particular way?
2b) Suppose I realize I messed up after partner's 2H bid (intended as a signoff). Am I allowed to take another action at my own risk, even though our agreement on this auction at this vulnerability is that 2H is a signoff?

Of course, if I'm just playing at a table and my partner announces my range as 10-12, I'm screwed either way, but lets suppose partner doesn't announce or there's screens or whatnot (in the case that happened, we were on BBO so partner didn't alert, of course)

Thanks!

[pran]

 kayin801, on 2011-May-11, 21:54, said:

We play a variable NT, 10-12 in 1st/2nd w/r and 14-16 all others.

We had an auction the other day (last board of a late online session) where I accidentally opened a balanced 16 count in 2nd seat 1NT. My partner responded 2H (on a pleasant 11 count) which was a signoff, and there should be no way whatsoever that I could pull this. I was still in strong NT mode though, so I bid 2S. Partner passed this and we made 9 tricks in our 4-2 fit. Whoops. Partner was as confused as I was when dummy came down.

My 2S bid should tell partner that I actually have 14-16, as I shouldn't be able to pull 2H if I had a 10-12 hand (psyches withstanding).

A few questions/scenarios:
1) My partner figures from my 2S bid that I messed up. Is he allowed to take another bid or try to place the contract (at his own risk, of course)?
2a) Suppose I realize I messed up after my 2S bid and my partner takes another bid. Am I obligated to behave in any particular way?
2b) Suppose I realize I messed up after partner's 2H bid (intended as a signoff). Am I allowed to take another action at my own risk, even though our agreement on this auction at this vulnerability is that 2H is a signoff?

Of course, if I'm just playing at a table and my partner announces my range as 10-12, I'm screwed either way, but lets suppose partner doesn't announce or there's screens or whatnot (in the case that happened, we were on BBO so partner didn't alert, of course)

Thanks!

The important question is: "Does the player have UI of any sort?" (for instance from his partner's announcement, alert or explanation)

Knowledge from the legal auction only that a player has (probably) messed up is not UI, so my answers will be:
1: Yes, sure.
2a): No, certainly not.
2b): Yes, sure.

[iviehoff]

 pran, on 2011-May-12, 02:45, said:

The important question is: "Does the player have UI of any sort?" (for instance from his partner's announcement, alert or explanation)

Knowledge from the legal auction only that a player has (probably) messed up is not UI, so my answers will be:
1: Yes, sure.
2a): No, certainly not.
2b): Yes, sure.

Your first statement is correct, but your second statement does not follow. If you have UI, I think you have to be careful about saying that UI tells you nothing if you have similar information from AI. The UI usually makes you sure about something you might otherwise be unsure about; the UI tells you exactly what the weirdness is when the AI only says something is weird.

In the present case, it would appear that the player has no UI, and can therefore do what he likes. The AI is irrelevant.

But what actually happened here is a great case for presenting to FTF players (no screens) who try to argue that they were not influenced by the UI, and used the AI only. "You are telling me that you know from the AI of the auction alone you can tell your partner is completing a transfer that is not a transfer, not assisted at all by your hearing that he announced 'transfer'. Thus you are telling me you can bid 3H legally. But look at this, playing on-line, the player completed the transfer-that-wasn't-a-transfer, and his partner passed. That's what players with no UI are likely to do."

[kayin801]

Oh, one more scenario then! I knew I forgot something when I posted this yesterday:

We're playing face to face. I open 1NT on my 16 count and my partner announces (correctly and loud enough for me to hear) 10-12. (oh$4*t) Partner then bids 2♥.
3a) Do I announce 2♥ as a transfer, since that's how I would have interpreted it since I "cannot hear partner" or should I stay quiet?
3b) I would never have passed before, so is it acceptable to pass now, or am I obligated to bid (xfer acceptance or super acceptance only, of course, bidding anything else seems like massive UI usage to me) In other words, what's the ethically correct action here?

Thanks again.

[mjj29]

 kayin801, on 2011-May-12, 07:19, said:

Oh, one more scenario then! I knew I forgot something when I posted this yesterday:

We're playing face to face. I open 1NT on my 16 count and my partner announces (correctly and loud enough for me to hear) 10-12. (oh$4*t) Partner then bids 2♥.
3a) Do I announce 2♥ as a transfer, since that's how I would have interpreted it since I "cannot hear partner" or should I stay quiet?
3b) I would never have passed before, so is it acceptable to pass now, or am I obligated to bid (xfer acceptance or super acceptance only, of course, bidding anything else seems like massive UI usage to me) In other words, what's the ethically correct action here?

Thanks again.

You must use your partners' announcement to make your own alerts and announcements as per your system, but your bids must be as you originally believed. So, in this example you must not announce it, but must bid 2S. In the other situation (where you think it's 10-12, but actually it's 14-16), you must announce it as a transfer and then pass.

Matt

[mycroft]

Small correction; doesn't change the meaning, just makes it more generic.

 mjj29, on 2011-May-12, 07:49, said:

You must use your current best belief of your actual agreement to make your own alerts and announcements as per your system, but your bids must be as you originally believed. So, in this example you must not announce it, but must bid 2S. In the other situation (where you think it's 10-12, but actually it's 14-16), you must announce it as a transfer and then pass.

There are two cases, which are identical to the Laws, but are different in the mind:
1) partner's announcement woke you up. Then Alert as per the agreement, bid as if you weren't woken up.
2) You woke up before partner's announcement. Unfortunately, due to the wording of the UI laws, the TD has to rule as if you were trying to get away with 1) above, so bid as if you weren't woken up, because otherwise the TD will do it for you.

There's a third case, but it never happens - partner doesn't Announce as he's supposed to. Then you're allowed to wake up. But you still Announce to your agreement as you (now) remember it.

As far as partner is concerned, if he can figure out why you bid 2S over a "mustpass" 2H, provided he hasn't heard you announce "transfer" or anything like that, he's free to try to save it.