[dake50]

I really love to make a 2-suited bid that helps
opponents find their perfecto game.
Save your 2-suiter bids for real value hands.
Not S:x H:QJxxx D:KJxxx C:xx
BUT S:x H:AQJxx D:KQ109x C:xx
Some near 5-loser hand.

[rbforster]

straube, on 2011-May-01, 11:51, said:

Have a link?

Here's my version.

[whereagles]

gnasher, on 2011-May-02, 13:09, said:

Is that the only suggestion in this thread that attracts your hatred? I have a rather longer list (though I like Trinidad's suggestion).

From my experience of playing 1m-2NT as om+M, I think your reluctance is quite exaggerated

[Zelandakh]

Over 1m I quite like to play a multi defence...

2m = wjo in a major or strong S + om
2H = majors, weak
2S = S + om, weak
2N = H + om, weak or strong
3m = majors, strong

[straube]

Based on Hardy's method (but tweaked)

1) cues are top and bottom (lower ranking is longer). A cue also serves to describe a 5/5 hand which is too strong to make a simple overcall; this hand plans to rebid the higher ranking.

2) dbl shows either a 3-suited hand or the two higher ranking (equal level conversion) or a strong hand. Strong hands must rebid NT, cue, 2S or higher (or partner will take it as ELC).
.....Dbl is the way to introduce 5/5 in the majors if the hand is not strong. Dbl does not handle any strong 2-suited hands

3) NT is natural except by a PH

4) 1C-2D shows 4+H/5+D and is limited

5) 1C-2N shows 5H/5D and could be strong

6) 1D-2N shows 4+H/5+ clubs and could be strong (Hardy used 3C for this, but I want the club preempt)

7) 1M-2N shows 5/5 minors but diamonds are never longer

8) most 5M/4+m start with a simple overcall. 5S/4H starts with 1S (Hardy used 1S and then 2H to show a stronger hand but he's not able to show the relative lengths)

9) jump cue bids show 5/5s in highest ranking and are strong. For example 1D (3D) shows 5/5 majors and a good hand. 1H (3H) shows a strong 5S/5D hand. Hardy didn't use this bid thusly, but I think it is hard to describe 2-suited with the higher ranking without these bids. Two-suited of higher ranking and moderate strength can dbl (in the case of both majors) or can introduce the higher ranking and then the lower ranking one at a time.

Thoughts?

[akhare]

straube, on 2011-May-03, 22:52, said:

...
9) jump cue bids show 5/5s in highest ranking and are strong. For example 1D (3D) shows 5/5 majors and a good hand. 1H (3H) shows a strong 5S/5D hand. Hardy didn't use this bid thusly, but I think it is hard to describe 2-suited with the higher ranking without these bids. Two-suited of higher ranking and moderate strength can dbl (in the case of both majors) or can introduce the higher ranking and then the lower ranking one at a time.

Thoughts?

I think this potential and when combined with NTO (only when NV. and only over their 1m opening), can be really effective.

Basically:

(1m):

X: PD when NV
X: Takeout when V
1N: NTO when NV
1N: Natural when V
Cue: 4+ spades and 5+ Om
3m: Strong 5S, 5+ Om

[straube]

still looking at something based on Hardy's structure which attempts to...

1) preserve weak jump overcalls (preempts)
2) provide forcing methods of introducing two-suited hands
3) describe 5/4 patterns and the relative length of each

We can apply it in the balancing seat as well as direct.

It has certain drawbacks...
1) it is difficult to show strong 1-suited hands except for spades. Many experts don't allow equal level conversion with hearts as the anchor.
2) we need to give up showing weak 2-suited hands. We have some leeway at favorable, but in general showing a 2-suited hand should be a realistic attempt to take the bid. Our dbl (especially) needs to be constructive in nature (like 9 pts at a minimum) because partner may want to bid some number of notrump.
3) equal level conversion poses problems when advancer has clubs and values. Note that a double never promises clubs and advancer's jump bid of them promises an independent suit (at least 5 good clubs).

The rules are...

1) cue bids are top and bottom (promising five+ in the lower ranking suit). A cue bid also serves to describe a 5/5 hand which is too strong to make a simple overcall; this hand plans to rebid the higher ranking suit as a 1-rd force.

2) dbl shows at least a light opening hand in terms of playing strength. It promises the two higher ranking suits or a strong hand. After an opening 1m, double usually shows support for both majors and is totally ambiguous in terms of minor suit holding. We practice equal level conversion with both diamonds and hearts as the anchor. Dbl and rebid of 2H promises four spades and five hearts and a hand that only planned to compete to the 2-level. Strong hands must rebid NT, cue or bid 2S or higher so as not to be confused with ELC. Double and bid of 3H (whether a jump or not) shows a big heart hand. After
1D dbl P 2C advancer has shown a suit that doubler hasn't promised and doubler's raise would confirm a fit without promising more than an opening hand. After 1D dbl P 3C advancer has shown independent clubs and invitational strength. 1D dbl P 3C P 3H would be forcing and promise 5+ hearts.

3) NT is natural except by a PH

4) 1C-2D shows 4+H/5+D and is limited (not weak or strong)

5) 1C-2N shows 5H/5D and could be strong

6) 1D-2N shows 4+H/5+ clubs and could be strong. With competitive 5H/5C it is usually better to overcall
1H and introduce clubs if the auction permits.

7) 1M-2N shows 5D/5+C and diamonds are never longer

8. most 5M/4+m hands start with a simple overcall of the major. 5S/4+H hands start with 1S and rebid 2H.

9. jump cue bids show 5/5s in the highest ranking suits and are strong. For example 1D (3D) shows 5/5 majors and a strong hand. 1H (3H) shows a strong 5S/5D hand. All other strong two-suiters start with a cue bid or an unusual 2N and then bid the higher ranking later. The jump cue bid is designed to handle those hands that are too strong to risk a simple overcall.

[Zelandakh]

So summarising, over 1D
X = usual dbl hands plus majors, med
2D = S + C med, or C + a major, strong
2M,3C = wjo
2N = 4H + C, weak/med or H + C,strong
3D = majors, strong

and over 1C
X = usual dbl hands plus majors, med
2C = S + D weak, or D + a major, strong
2D = 4H + D, med
2M = wjo
2N = H + D, weak/med or strong
3C = majors, strong

Over 1M
X = usual dbl hands plus om + D, med
2M = om + C
2N = minors
3M = om + D. strong

My first thought when I read your structure was surprise that you are willing to give up the 2D wjo when you are set against giving up 3C as a wjo. It seems to me unlikely that 2D as, usually, 4H and 5+ diamonds is going to be more effective than a normal wjo here. If going down this route I would prefer to play 2D as Raptor with the major ambiguous. One option for getting the weak hand with majors back in after a 1m opening would be to treat 3m as weak or strong, in essence just like a UNT for the majors. Overall I am honestly not convinced. If designing a system around 5-4 hands then surely either transfer overcalls or canape must have better options, despite the drawbacks of both... or just bite the bullet and play Raptor rather than distorting the rest of the system to accomodate such hands.

[straube]

Zelandakh, on 2011-May-05, 12:09, said:

So summarising, over 1D
X = usual dbl hands plus majors, med
2D = S + C med, or C + a major, strong
2M,3C = wjo
2N = 4H + C, weak/med or H + C,strong
3D = majors, strong

and over 1C
X = usual dbl hands plus majors, med
2C = S + D weak, or D + a major, strong
2D = 4H + D, med
2M = wjo
2N = H + D, weak/med or strong
3C = majors, strong

Over 1M
X = usual dbl hands plus om + D, med
2M = om + C
2N = minors
3M = om + D. strong

My first thought when I read your structure was surprise that you are willing to give up the 2D wjo when you are set against giving up 3C as a wjo. It seems to me unlikely that 2D as, usually, 4H and 5+ diamonds is going to be more effective than a normal wjo here. If going down this route I would prefer to play 2D as Raptor with the major ambiguous. One option for getting the weak hand with majors back in after a 1m opening would be to treat 3m as weak or strong, in essence just like a UNT for the majors. Overall I am honestly not convinced. If designing a system around 5-4 hands then surely either transfer overcalls or canape must have better options, despite the drawbacks of both... or just bite the bullet and play Raptor rather than distorting the rest of the system to accomodate such hands.

First, thanks for actually addressing the proposal. It's nice to learn other options, but it's also nice to get feedback. The summary is not quite right and I'll rewrite it....

Over 1C

dbl-shows the majors (can range from 3/3 to 4/5H) OR a strong hand.
2C-4S/5D OR strong 5S/5D
2D-4H/5D medium
2M-wjo
2N-5H/5D
3C-5S/5H, strong

over 1D

dbl-shows the majors (can range from 3/3 to 4/5H) OR a strong hand
2D-4S/5C OR strong 5S/5C
2M-wjo
2N-4H/5C OR strong 5H/5C
3D-5S/5H, strong

over 1H

dbl-takeout but can be equal level conversion OR a strong hand
2H-4S/5C
2S-wjo
2N-5D/5C
3H-strong 5S/5D

over 1S

dbl-takeout but can be equal level conversion OR a strong hand
2S-4H/5C OR strong 5H/5C
2N-5D/5C
3S-5H/5D, strong

I do value a weak 2D bid, but I have preserve the option to overcall 1D or preempt 3D. After a 1D opening, I only have 2C overcall and 3C preempt. In a sense, 1C-2D is an "extra" bid that I have available and the touching 4H/5D hands are hard otherwise to describe.

Do you like it any better now that the suits are never ambiguous? One thing I like about this is that we can always show 2-suited hands in a way that identifies the suits immediately. True, sometimes partner won't know immediately whether I am 4/5 or 5/5 but I'll only be 5/5 when I'm strong and plan to bid again.

I think in general that the higher ranking suits (mostly majors) are easiest to describe...bidding them one at a time. That's why so much machinery is given to the top and bottom and 2 lowest. Take the situation after a 1S opening when I have a medium hand with hearts and diamonds. I can overcall 2H and then diamonds. True, they might get to 3S before I can show the second suit, but then we're likely to be outbid anyway. However, if I have a strong hand with hearts and diamonds, I have the jump cue bid available which necessarily puts me at the 4-level, but then that's why I only reserve such a bid for a strong hand. After 1m opening, my jump to 3m shows a strong major suit hand (5/5) but it need not be as strong as the 5H/5D hand I just talked about because we can subside at the 3-level.

[awm]

I'll mention that the (1M)-3M stopper ask sequence has come up a reasonable number of times for me and is a pretty big win when it does (and a somewhat tough hand to bid otherwise).

I'm not convinced that you really need (1M)-3M showing a strong two-suiter more than you need the one-suited stopper-ask meaning.

[straube]

awm, on 2011-May-05, 18:25, said:

I'll mention that the (1M)-3M stopper ask sequence has come up a reasonable number of times for me and is a pretty big win when it does (and a somewhat tough hand to bid otherwise).

I'm not convinced that you really need (1M)-3M showing a strong two-suiter more than you need the one-suited stopper-ask meaning.

I'm sure I've played a lot less bridge than you, but I don't remember myself or partners ever making a double jump asking for a stopper. Wouldn't be surprised if I'd had the hand for it and spaced that I had that tool available.

I do remember plenty of strong 2-suited hands and if we give up Michaels we need a way to show the two highest ranking. Otherwise we either overcall the higher and risk getting passed out or start with a double and then bid the higher (and get passed out) or double and then cue bid and then bid both suits if necessary. That last option takes potentially 4 bids before the message gets out.

I think if I have a strong hand with (say) a running minor, I can double and then cue bid (or jump cue bid even) and get partner to fess up to a stopper at least a lot of the time.

[straube]

Here's how I'm envisioning the advance after 1D dbl P (keeping in mind that dbl promises either majors or a strong hand and says nothing about the minors)

1S with Kxx xx xxxx xxxx (doesn't have 5 clubs and this bid allows more room for opener to show his hand)
1H with Kxx xxx xxx xxxx (similar reasoning, if opener cue bids 2D, this hand will bid 2S to show 3-3)
1S with Kxxx xxxx xxx xx (if opener cue bids 2D, this hand will bid 2H to show 4-4)
2C with xxx Kxx xx xxxxx (having 5 of them)


After 1D dbl P 1S P I think 2H should show the strong heart hand and be nf

After 1D dbl P anything else, I think 2H should show the 4S/5H hand

[nige1]

Michaels can be modified by stretching it, over a minor..
Over (1m), 2m = ♠ + ♥/om . 2N = ♥ + om (the usual meaning). For instance over (1♣)...

• 2♣ = ♠ + ♥/♦
• 2N = ♥ + ♦

Over (1M), overcalls retain their usual ,meaning: 2M = OM + minor. 2N = minors. For example after (1♥)...

• 2♥ = ♠ + ♦/♣
• 2N = ♣ + ♦

Summary: The 2N overcall retains its normal meaing (two lowest unbid suits). The Michaels cue-bid is extended to handle the other two-suiters. "Michaels" now promises the higher ranking unbid major and another unbid suit.

Here is the gist of a possible continuation structure...

Over Michaels, advancer bids...

• Cue = RKC for anchor major
• Raise of anchor major = Pre-empt.
• 2N = Asks for other suit (may be strong -- then cue/4N = 6-key RKC).
• Cheaper unbid suit = Pass/Correct.
• More expensive unbid suit = Natural (to play if misfit).
• (If opponents bid a new suit. then double by advancer = Pass/Correct).

If advancer makes a pass/correct suit bid, then the Michaels bidder normally does what he's told (passes or corrects). Exceptionally...

• Raise = Fit + extra shape.
• Cue = Fit + extra power.
• Anchor suit = Misfit + extra length in anchor suit.
• Jump in new suit = Misfit + extra length in this suit.
• 3N = Misfit + extra power.

If opponents let advancer off the hook, overcaller may persist

• Double = Extra power
• Natural suit = Extra shape
• Cue=bid = Extra power and shape with higher ranking unbid suit
• Notrump = Exta power and shape with lower ranking unbid suit.

[straube]

We're trying to clear up the ambiguity and this adds to ambiguity. At the cost of being a level higher, I don't think it adds much value to cue bidding 2m to show spades and another when I could overcall 1S and then my second suit.

[olien]

Is it so much to give up the cheapest jump shift? I know that Garner - Weinstein play natural cue-bids over minors and 2m+1 is michaels. Having spoken with Mr. Weinstein several times about this, he swears by it. His argument is that 2m+1 is not that preemptive as a natural preempt and I asked what he does with the classical 2-level WJO and he replied "we bid 1 or 3." So, if you want to show specific two suiters and are willing to give up 2m+1 as a WJO, then you could do a similar thing without the natural cue bids (all bids 5+/5+ unless otherwise noted):

Over 1♣:
2♣ = ♥ + ♠
2♦ = ♦ + ♠ NF
2NT = ♦ + ♥
3♣ = ♦ + ♠ strong

Over 1♦:
2♦ = ♠ + ♣
2♥ = ♥ + ♠ NF
2NT = ♣ + ♥
3♦ = ♥ + ♠ strong

Over the majors one may desire to not give up the cheapest jump shift as weak since it does cramp their auctions significantly more (i.e. after (1♥)-2♠, if the opps don't have a ♥ fit, they don't always have enough room to diagnose if 3NT, 4♥, or 5m is correct and mis-guess enough of the time to make it worthwhile, although one can always just bid 3♠). Anyways, over 1M they play specific 2-suiters:

Over 1♥:
2♥ = ♠ + ♣
2♠ = ♠ + ♦ NF
2NT = minors
(they also play here that 3m=6+m and 4♠)

Over 1♠:
2♠ = they play this bid as 4♥ 6+m, but could also be played ghestem style (5+♥ + 5+♣)
2NT = minors
3♣ = they play this as 5+♥ 5+♣ NF, but could be played ghestem style (5+♥ 5+♦)
3♦ = they play this as 5+♥ 5+♦ NF

Anyways, just a suggestion.

[straube]

olien, on 2011-May-08, 01:17, said:

Is it so much to give up the cheapest jump shift? I know that Garner - Weinstein play natural cue-bids over minors and 2m+1 is michaels. Having spoken with Mr. Weinstein several times about this, he swears by it. His argument is that 2m+1 is not that preemptive as a natural preempt and I asked what he does with the classical 2-level WJO and he replied "we bid 1 or 3." So, if you want to show specific two suiters and are willing to give up 2m+1 as a WJO, then you could do a similar thing without the natural cue bids (all bids 5+/5+ unless otherwise noted):

Over 1♣:
2♣ = ♥ + ♠
2♦ = ♦ + ♠ NF
2NT = ♦ + ♥
3♣ = ♦ + ♠ strong

Over 1♦:
2♦ = ♠ + ♣
2♥ = ♥ + ♠ NF
2NT = ♣ + ♥
3♦ = ♥ + ♠ strong

Over the majors one may desire to not give up the cheapest jump shift as weak since it does cramp their auctions significantly more (i.e. after (1♥)-2♠, if the opps don't have a ♥ fit, they don't always have enough room to diagnose if 3NT, 4♥, or 5m is correct and mis-guess enough of the time to make it worthwhile, although one can always just bid 3♠). Anyways, over 1M they play specific 2-suiters:

Over 1♥:
2♥ = ♠ + ♣
2♠ = ♠ + ♦ NF
2NT = minors
(they also play here that 3m=6+m and 4♠)

Over 1♠:
2♠ = they play this bid as 4♥ 6+m, but could also be played ghestem style (5+♥ + 5+♣)
2NT = minors
3♣ = they play this as 5+♥ 5+♣ NF, but could be played ghestem style (5+♥ 5+♦)
3♦ = they play this as 5+♥ 5+♦ NF

Anyways, just a suggestion.

Thanks for telling us what Garner-Weinstein do.

[straube]

I'm starting to change my thinking a bit. I've been looking at hands in a casual sort of way and have noticed...

1) that overcalling the opponent's minor as natural can be a win but is seldom so. I've even looked at hands where 1C promised 2+ clubs

2) using (1C) 2D for 4H/5D means that this hand is also short in spades (not 3-4-5-1 for example, else a takeout double) and that hurts its frequency of use and also means that we are likely to be outbid.

3) using (1C) 2C as 4S/5D means that we are short in hearts (not 4-3-5-1 for example). It leaves (1C) 1D P 1H P 1S without meaning.

4) Forcing weakish hands to decide between a 1-level and 3-level overcall does place a strain. It also hampers someone when partner is a passed hand and he wants to jam the auction with a 5-cd suit.
I remember that Rodwell recommended playing an opening 2D as a weak jump preempt (assuming playing a standard system).

I guess I'm thinking for defense to 1C natural....

1L-natural
1N-natural
2C-majors (4/5 or 5/5), could be strong
....2D-asks if 5/5
2L-weak
2N-5H/5D
3C-spades and diamonds, strong

Against 1D natural

2D-majors (4/5 or 5/5) could be strong
2N-5H/5C
3D-5S/5C, strong

Against 1H natural

2H-5S/5C
2S-weak
2N-5D/5C
3H-5S/5D, strong

Against 1S natural

2S-5H/5C
2N-5D/5C
3S-5H/5D, strong

[wclass___]

straube, on 2011-May-08, 13:50, said:

I guess I'm thinking for defense to 1C natural....

1L-natural
1N-natural
2C-majors (4/5 or 5/5), could be strong
....2D-asks if 5/5
2L-weak
2N-5H/5D
3C-spades and diamonds, strong

Maybe you want to take a look here:
My link
i really like how diamond and strong ♥ hands are handled.

[straube]

wclass___, on 2011-May-09, 06:42, said:

Maybe you want to take a look here:
My link
i really like how diamond and strong ♥ hands are handled.

Well, I have wondered if there is a better use for the 1D overcall. Like if it promised a 2-suited hand with diamonds or perhaps a 4M/5m (even with clubs), but then there's the 5m/5m hand, too where you want to wade in with 1D. One of our posters used it for any strong hand.

[straube]

I've become skeptical of top and bottom over a minor. Let's say I'm considering whether to use 1C (2C) as 4S/5+D or Michaels. If I have 4-3-5-1 I'm doubling instead of cue-bidding. With a 4S/6D hand, I'm tempted to just bid diamonds lest partner choose spades with 3S/1D or even 3S/2D. I also think I'd want to Michaels with 5/4, 4/5 as well as 5/5 shapes because partner's 2D advance can be used to ask which major is longer. Majors are just better.

This means that likely shapes for the top and bottom are...

4252
4153

and Michaels are...

5431
5422
5413
4531
4522
4513
5521
5512

I've the same sort of consideration for 1C (2D) as Roman. Just too infrequent.