[aguahombre]

For purpose of determining whether a revoke may be rectified by the director in accordance with 64B5:

It would seem that 8B1 defines the end of a round for a particular table as after the move has been called, but not until that table has finished and the players progress. Does this mean finishing early and standing up does not end the round, and a revoke on the last board may still be discovered and rectified if the move has not been called?

[gordontd]

aguahombre, on 2011-April-13, 10:27, said:

For purpose of determining whether a revoke may be rectified by the director in accordance with 64B5:

It would seem that 8B1 defines the end of a round for a particular table as after the move has been called, but not until that table has finished and the players progress. Does this mean finishing early and standing up does not end the round, and a revoke on the last board may still be discovered and rectified if the move has not been called?

Yes.

[blackshoe]

This one belongs here. I forgot to leave a link in "Laws and Rulings".

[aguahombre]

Yeh, I thought about that. Then I thought it might not be "simple" to decide whether their round had truly ended if a pair goes out for a smoke. Also, is a hospitality break part of the previous round or something that happens after one round but before the next one?

[blackshoe]

Hospitality breaks are generally not part of any round, though I suppose if the TD calls the break, and some table(s) aren't done with their last board yet, they're not in the break, they're in the round. If they take too long, then, they might not get a break at all.

[kvar]

What about in a Swiss? If you realize the opponents revoked while comparing scores with your teammates, can you still get rectification?

[gordontd]

kvar, on 2011-April-13, 13:59, said:

What about in a Swiss? If you realize the opponents revoked while comparing scores with your teammates, can you still get rectification?

Not if it's after the end of the round, but you could still get an adjustment to restore equity.

[bluejak]

Law 8B1 says that the round ends when the next round's start is announced by the TD, subject to it being extended for a table still in play. So let us look at the possibilities.

Let us assume rounds are normally 15 minutes. So round 5, for example starts at 8.30, and ends at 8.45 when the TD tells players to start round 6. If a pair goes out to smoke at [say] 8.42 and comes back in at 8.47 it does not affect it: the round ended at 8.45.

Now consider a hospitality break of 15 minutes at the end of round 6, so the break is from 9.00 to 9.15. When does round 6 end? Read the Law: the answer is 9.15. It says nothing about extending or not extending the round: it is just based on when the TD starts the next round.

In England the TD tells players when a Swiss match starts, so the same rules apply to a Swiss Teams: scoring up is irrelevant. Even if he does not, giving out the boards is a pretty clear signal. But in the ACBL Swiss matches seem to start pretty much at random: when does the round end? No announcement is made, and [unbelievably] players usually deal their own boards! I think you have to decide when is the logical equivalent of the Law. Once the first assignment is posted play can start, so to me that is the end of the previous round, except of course for people still playing.

[aguahombre]

Thanks Blue. Those explanations make it much easier to apply, for the purpose of revoke rectification, than some others I have heard.

[nige1]

TFLB, L64B5 said:

There is no rectification as in A following an established revoke: if attention was first drawn to the revoke after the round has ended.

TFLB, L8B1 said:

In general, a round ends when the Director gives the signal for the start of the following round; but if any table has not completed play by that time, the round continues for that table until there has been a progression of players.

kvar, on 2011-April-13, 13:59, said:

What about in a Swiss? If you realize the opponents revoked while comparing scores with your teammates, can you still get rectification?

gordontd, on 2011-April-13, 15:04, said:

Not if it's after the end of the round, but you could still get an adjustment to restore equity.

bluejak, on 2011-April-16, 12:21, said:

In England the TD tells players when a Swiss match starts, so the same rules apply to a Swiss Teams: scoring up is irrelevant. Even if he does not, giving out the boards is a pretty clear signal.
But in the ACBL Swiss matches seem to start pretty much at random: when does the round end? No announcement is made, and [unbelievably] players usually deal their own boards! I think you have to decide when is the logical equivalent of the Law. Once the first assignment is posted play can start, so to me that is the end of the previous round, except of course for people still playing. Blujak quoted...

Is gordontd's view the same as blujak's? (I see it could be).

[gordontd]

nige1, on 2011-April-16, 14:12, said:

Is gordontd's view the same as blujak's? (I see it could be).

Yes it is, but he was more detailed in his explanation than I was.

[pran]

Whenever I have an extended scheduled break (15 minutes or more for whatever reason) I announce this as a break between sessions. I hope there will be no disagreement that a round cannot be extended until the next session begins? (See Law 8C)

(Defining sessions is of course a matter for the Tournament Organizer)

[bluejak]

We were discussing Law 8B1 not Law 8C. If it is the last round of a session then of course we apply Law 8C not 8B1. However, I think it would surprise most players and TDs, including me, if the 26 boards played in a standard ACBL afternoon was defined as three sessions just to amend when rounds before hospitality breaks finish and for no other purpose except to confuse everyone.

Or, to put it another way, I am sure you are totally right legally, but practically wrong: a very poor idea to base sessions on hospitality breaks.

Plus, of course, as you note, the TD may not make such a decision, it has to be the TO.

[suprgrover]

bluejak, on 2011-April-16, 12:21, said:

But in the ACBL Swiss matches seem to start pretty much at random: when does the round end? No announcement is made, and [unbelievably] players usually deal their own boards!

Not in the club I run! (Or in at least two other nearby clubs that have directors who know a good idea when they see it.)

[barmar]

I believe ACBLScore lets you select strict or loose pairings. With loose pairings, it can start creating matches when only a handful of results have been entered, if there are teams with scores not too far apart. And it's common in sectional and regional tournaments to start putting up the matches as soon as it can create them. This probably isn't totally fair, since the teams in the earlier posted matches have more time for the round than the later ones, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about this.

However, they don't start the clock for the round until all the pairings have been put up, and in all the tournaments I go to the TD will make an announcement "All the matches are up, the clock is running."

[pran]

bluejak, on 2011-April-17, 04:39, said:

We were discussing Law 8B1 not Law 8C. If it is the last round of a session then of course we apply Law 8C not 8B1. However, I think it would surprise most players and TDs, including me, if the 26 boards played in a standard ACBL afternoon was defined as three sessions just to amend when rounds before hospitality breaks finish and for no other purpose except to confuse everyone.

Or, to put it another way, I am sure you are totally right legally, but practically wrong: a very poor idea to base sessions on hospitality breaks.

Plus, of course, as you note, the TD may not make such a decision, it has to be the TO.

Law 81B1:
The Director is responsible for the on-site technical management of the tournament. He has powers to remedy any omissions of the Tournament Organizer.

[blackshoe]

So the failure to define an event that includes a hospitality break as a two session event is an omission on the part of the TO? Interesting view.

[suprgrover]

barmar, on 2011-April-17, 21:11, said:

I believe ACBLScore lets you select strict or loose pairings. With loose pairings, it can start creating matches when only a handful of results have been entered, if there are teams with scores not too far apart. And it's common in sectional and regional tournaments to start putting up the matches as soon as it can create them. This probably isn't totally fair, since the teams in the earlier posted matches have more time for the round than the later ones, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about this.

However, they don't start the clock for the round until all the pairings have been put up, and in all the tournaments I go to the TD will make an announcement "All the matches are up, the clock is running."

It could be something else as well. In some Swiss events (both in the ACBL and elsewhere), pairings for the first few matches are based on the score from one round in arrears, so the first two rounds are random but Round 3 matches are based on Round 1 results, and so on. The last few matches are generally based on the current scores.

[pran]

blackshoe, on 2011-April-18, 06:11, said:

So the failure to define an event that includes a hospitality break as a two session event is an omission on the part of the TO? Interesting view.

It depends of course on your tradition for what constitutes a session, but IMHO there is a session break whenever two rounds are scheduled to be separated by at least 15 minutes.