[han]

KJxxx
KQxx
KQx
x

1S - p - 1NT - (2C)
??

Do you double or bid 2H? Does double show extra values? Scoring was IMPs.

[mcphee]

I greatly prefer playing double as t/o here. Playing dble as penalty is a model T rusting away. I treat the dble as a hand that wants to compete further, extra values not required but nor should it be a random hand type. This hand qualifies .

[Fluffy]

I prefer to double to let partner leave in if appropiate

[JLOGIC]

HANP?!

I double because I have short clubs and support for the other 2 suits. Diamonds could easily be our best strain, as could 2C X, and in general partner will make more accurate decisions since he will know our hand better.

I do not think double shows extra values at all, nor does bidding 2D or 2H or 2S. They are just normal bids describing my hand.

[paulg]

i'd double. I think this should promise a non-minimum opener.

[JLOGIC]

What do people do with a minimum opener? Pass? Isn't it extremely likely to just get passed out, and that will be bad, since...you know..you have a stiff club and very likely a fit somewhere and close to half the deck and are defending 2C?

Or do you just bid 2 of a red suit instead of doubling, which commits your side to bidding anyways and is just less descriptive about your hand, in order to keep X available to show a queen more than minimum?

Why should doubling show more values than bidding something, even though doubling keeps more strains in play and is a cheaper bid and is thus safer, while it also shows short clubs which is a time when you know you MUST bid in order to prevent 2C from being passed out?

[Valardent]

I play dbl = extra values with "some" support for other suits.

I would certainly not dbl with this hand as partner cld pass with long or/and strong ♣ and I'm quite far of the defense tricks my dbl promises.

So I would bid 2♥ (and yes, sometimes miss the 5 or 6-3 ♦ fit)

Give me ♠AKxxx ♥Axxx ♦K10x ♣x, dbl is a standout.

A few weeks ago, a similar situation occured at the table.

Bidding was (neither vul) : 1♠ (P) 1NT (2♦) ?

AKQxxx Axxx xx A

I would dbl with that hand :

- If p pass, fine : 4♠ could win while 2♦ would go only 2 off, so be it. Other scenario's are muche more frequent.

- If p bids ♣, one can correct to ♥ showing this kind of powerhouse

- Any other bids will be easy to cope with (except for 4♣, but that's a remote possibility, even so when one plays lebenshol)

3♦ was bid with that hand, a decent alternative to dbl. I would say 3♦ should show that type of hand (preferably with solid ♠)or some strong 5404/5503 with no desire to end up in 2♦/X.

On the deal, things didn't come out great for the opening side: responder had x Jxx QJ8x QJ108x. It ended up in 4♠/X -3; spades were 6-0 offside.

[jukmoi]

I would have thought that double is for penalties. Guess I need to learn new meta-rule like "low-level doubles are always take-out if that makes any sense".

[pooltuna]

JLOGIC, on 2010-December-29, 07:50, said:

HANP?!

I double because I have short clubs and support for the other 2 suits. Diamonds could easily be our best strain, as could 2C X, and in general partner will make more accurate decisions since he will know our hand better.

I do not think double shows extra values at all, nor does bidding 2D or 2H or 2S. They are just normal bids describing my hand.

This doubling structure of course puts a lot of pressure on the 1NT bidder when he is in the 6-7 HCP range and has the 2xy2, 2xy1 & 1xy2 hand and the bidding is passed around to him. Altho he will probably rebid his 6+ card suit if he has one but with more trepedation. Likewise it will be harder for you to pass in the 14-16 range with your 4+ card ♣ suit. Well everything has a price and this looks like yours.

[kayin801]

Agree with anyone who doubles, I tend to have this hand 20x more often then a penalty X when this auction comes around.

[nige1]

han, on 2010-December-29, 06:34, said:

KJxxx KQxx KQx x
1S - p - 1NT - (2C)
??
Do you double or bid 2H? Does double show extra values? Scoring was IMPs.

IMO _X = 10, 2♥ = 6, _P = 3. A good partnership agreement is that double is your flexible friend here, giving partner the choice of a penalty pass or a ♦ contract as well as a major.

[fred]

In my regular partnerships DBL is for takeout and does not promise extra values. But...

IMO there is a lot to be said for not DBLing when you have 4 hearts. This makes it easier for partner to know what to do with various possible shapes. Of course there are also some downsides to playing this way.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[OleBerg]

For me double doesn't show exstras either. 2♥ tends to be a 5-card suit.

[JLOGIC]

I also think it's right to double with 6S and 4H and a good hand, planning to bid hearts next to show that as opposed to risking 2H or bidding 3S. Hopefully partner hasn't bid 5D in the meantime

Fred do you actually bid 2H with this hand type in your regular partnerships or do you just think there is theoretical merit? It seems like you will miss diamonds or 2C X a large amount of the time and it is not worth it just to know that partner has 3 hearts for sure vs 4 hearts for sure, but I have never bid 2H on this type of hand so I have no sample size to back this up.

If it is a partscore hand it probably isn't a huge deal to play 2H in a 4-3 instead of 2D in a 4-4 or vice versa compared to being able to play diamonds or 2C X all the times that partner has 5 or 6 diamonds or 5 clubs. I would consider these hands a big net win for doubling rather than bidding 2H, even though getting to the wrong red suit opp exactly 4-4 is possible.

If partner has a game try with 4 hearts I guess it could get awkward if he cannot cuebid 3C since he would have to risk playing 3H in a 4-3, but then his shape is only something like 2434 (with 2443 or 1444 or whatever he could bid 3C with inv+). It will be unusual that partner will have less than 3 spades and only 4 hearts and not 4 diamonds. Obviously bidding 2H is a net win when partner has this hand (game try and 2434), but we lose when partner has a game try with long diamonds and we bid 2H, and I again think those hands are more frequent (though less important obv as finding major suit fits is the most important thing).

If the opps compete to 3C partner can double with both reds (I think, or is this penalty?). I would expect on average to be much better placed over competition having doubled since partner knows more about our hand and can compete in diamonds. With 5431 we might feel compelled to compete some more having bid 2H and that could easily be wrong. Again I am thinking that partner will very often have a 5 card red suit or 4-4 in the reds when he wants to compete, as opposed to just 4 hearts and no other strain. This is especially true when they raise.

[fred]

JLOGIC, on 2010-December-29, 12:34, said:

Fred do you actually bid 2H with this hand type in your regular partnerships or do you just think there is theoretical merit?

Brad and I don't have any explicit agreements about this, but we have discussed the concept. I suppose what this means is that if responder has a close decision as to what to bid, we would tend not to play partner for 4 cards in hearts (since if partner had 4 cards in hearts he might choose not to DBL).

I do think this idea has theoretical merit, but that doesn't mean I am confident that it is the right way to play. Main reason I mentioned it is because the discussion seemed to be focused on the meaning of DBL and I thought that, even if you play DBL as takeout without promising extra HCPs, that there was a case for bidding 2H.

Perhaps it should be noted that, since the DBL tends to show shape as opposed to strength (for me at least), we tend not to Pass these DBLs very often. This hand, with sound high card values, is a good example of why - it is not hard to imagine this hand being worth only 2 tricks (or even 1 trick on a bad day) on defense against a club contract. So unless partner really knows he has them nailed (which won't happen very often) I would expect him to bid something.

I mean, do you think you would be salivating at the prospect of collecting a huge number if you DBLed with this hand and partner passed? Bottom line is that, if I chose to bid 2H, I would not really concern myself with the possibility of missing a penalty (especially a sizable penalty).

My guess is that the form of scoring and/or vulnerability might well determine what is the "best" strategy to employ with hands like this. Of course the specific hand you have is also important. For example, if there was a reasonable alternative, I would not go out of my way to bid 2H on a suit like Jxxx. The opponents' style might also come into play.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[JLOGIC]

Yeah fair enough I agree you won't get rich that often but even beating them 1 when partner passes is pretty good if you were going to go minus by bidding. I agree that partner won't pass very often though, especially if the opps are good and not overcalling on dumb hands.

[cherdano]

Didn't we discuss a similar problem just the other day?

There the auction was 1S 1N (2D). I didn't remember that at the time, we and the panelists were mostly busy discussing whether double is takeout, but I did remember the following quote from Mike Lawrence (who had been asked in person about the auction by Roland):

Quote

"I like to play double as take-out. Extras but never with 4 hearts. If I have 4 hearts, I will bid them".

Of course, the theoretical merit of distinguishing between 3 and 4 hearts is stronger over a diamond overcall

[JLOGIC]

cherdano, on 2010-December-29, 17:20, said:

Didn't we discuss a similar problem just the other day?

There the auction was 1S 1N (2D). I didn't remember that at the time, we and the panelists were mostly busy discussing whether double is takeout, but I did remember the following quote from Mike Lawrence (who had been asked in person about the auction by Roland):

Of course, the theoretical merit of distinguishing between 3 and 4 hearts is stronger over a diamond overcall

As you say it's different over diamonds, partner has a much harder time with something like 4-4 in H and C and a good hand. I would be much more likely to bid 2H over diamonds, and with AKQx of hearts and 3 small clubs as in your example hand I def would bid 2H.

[cherdano]

Yup, actually I agree with the decision of my memory to forget the discussion of the actual hand (where the choice seems fairly clear) and to keep Mike Lawrence's quote about his general rule, which raises a more interesting point.

[JLOGIC]

Hah wow I posted in this thread, didn't even notice. Glad I agree with myself?! What is this thing

edit: POST 1000 w00t!