[kgr]

MP's

---

- Should 4♣ now be control for ♠ or be ♣?
- Should 5♥ be voidwood for ♠?
How do you continue? Will you be able to check for the Queens?

[Cyberyeti]

kgr, on 2010-December-08, 04:09, said:

MP's

---

- Should 4♣ now be control for ♠ or be ♣?
- Should 5♥ be voidwood for ♠?
How do you continue? Will you be able to check for the Queens?

I think I would have bid 3♣ forcing over 2♦, which might allow me to voidwood with clubs agreed and find the Q trivially. Also you may want to be in clubs opposite xx, KJx, Qxx, AQxxx in case the spades don't break (particularly in a field that's not that strong where any grand will score well).

Also it depends how many clubs partner guarantees by the opening bid, but I'd be responding 2♠ to 1♣ (opener showing 4 in my world, fit or rock crushing single suited).

To answer your questions, 5♥ should be voidwood, and if you play 1430 over this you're in good shape as 5♥-5♠-6♣ should show the K♣ and by implication say bid 7 with the Q. If partner has none of a 5th club, A♥, Q♦ you might be on a finesse for this, but most of the time it will just be on the spades behaving and partner may have the J.

[kgr]

Cyberyeti, on 2010-December-08, 07:42, said:

I think I would have bid 3♣ forcing over 2♦, which might allow me to voidwood with clubs agreed and find the Q trivially. Also you may want to be in clubs opposite xx, KJx, Qxx, AQxxx in case the spades don't break (particularly in a field that's not that strong where any grand will score well).

Makes sense

Cyberyeti, on 2010-December-08, 07:42, said:

Also it depends how many clubs partner guarantees by the opening bid, but I'd be responding 2♠ to 1♣ (opener showing 4 in my world, fit or rock crushing single suited).

See alert: 1♣=2+♣ (We open 5542)
We play that 2♠ is weak.

Cyberyeti, on 2010-December-08, 07:42, said:

To answer your questions, 5♥ should be voidwood, and if you play 1430 over this you're in good shape as 5♥-5♠-6♣ should show the K♣ and by implication say bid 7 with the Q. If partner has none of a 5th club, A♥, Q♦ you might be on a finesse for this, but most of the time it will just be on the spades behaving and partner may have the J.

We play 1430 RKC, but voidwood: 0-1-2-3 (I thought that this was standard?)
But I can agree with 5♥-5NT-6♣....

[Fluffy]

with this hand you should try to set the fit in clubs to be able to ask for the proper keycards, all you need is partner having ♣AQxx for 7♣ to be good.

So 3♣ as cyberyeti says is the best move.

Now 4♣ looks like a cuebid in spades, but it denies shortness in a minor (otherwise you would auto splinter 1♣-1♠-1NT-4m). But it might depend on what you play for 1♣-1♠-1NT-3♠.

[Cyberyeti]

kgr, on 2010-December-08, 08:00, said:

Makes sense
We play 1430 RKC, but voidwood: 0-1-2-3 (I thought that this was standard?)
But I can agree with 5♥-5NT-6♣....

It is standard but:

We play that some sequences are conclusively voids which are just splinters for most people, this means we use voidwood at the 4 level a lot, and add in a bid for "I'm really bad for my bidding to date". Also 4 is a viable number of aces for responder to hold, so we use standard RKCB responses.

Doesn't 5♥-5NT-6♣ ask for the Q of trumps rather than clubs ?

[mike777]

kgr, on 2010-December-08, 04:09, said:

MP's

---

- Should 4♣ now be control for ♠ or be ♣?
- Should 5♥ be voidwood for ♠?
How do you continue? Will you be able to check for the Queens?

1) I assume you open 1c with 3-3 in minors and `1d with 4-3 4-4
2) I assume crowhurst is some basic version of nmf
3) 1nt denies 3s or 4h so opener has real clubs.
4) I dont know crowhurst
5) if playing xyz you can bid 2d not 2c and now rebid 3c as gf....slam try often.....

--------------


given op I would assume 3s sets trumps and 4c=cue...spade slam try..again I defer to those that play crowhurst for years.

[kgr]

Cyberyeti, on 2010-December-08, 14:42, said:

Doesn't 5♥-5NT-6♣ ask for the Q of trumps rather than clubs ?

Hm, Yes

[kgr]

mike777, on 2010-December-08, 22:57, said:

1) I assume you open 1c with 3-3 in minors and `1d with 4-3 4-4

Yes (1♦ always promises 4c♦)

mike777, on 2010-December-08, 22:57, said:

2) I assume crowhurst is some basic version of nmf

I'm not even sure that we play Crowhurst. 2♣ asks 3c Support and strength. (2♦ is natural and non-forcing)

mike777, on 2010-December-08, 22:57, said:

3) 1nt denies 3s or 4h so opener has real clubs.

No, Opener can still be 3433.

mike777, on 2010-December-08, 22:57, said:

4) I don't know crowhurst

I'm not sure that it is the correct name for what we play (see '?' in the alert).

mike777, on 2010-December-08, 22:57, said:

5) if playing xyz you can bid 2d not 2c and now rebid 3c as gf....slam try often.....

2♣ followed by 3♣ is also GF slam try.

[Cyberyeti]

Crowhurst works something like this in the context of a 4 card opening club, I'm not sure how you adjust 2N/3♣ if at all for a short club

1♣-1♠-1N-2♣-

2♦=min, none of the above
2♥=min 4c♥
2♠=min 3c♠
2N=max none of the above (usually 3334)
3♣=max 5c♣
3♦=max 4c♦
3♥=max 4c♥
3♠=max 3c♠

Some people simply rebid 2N with most maximum hands

[mike777]

kgr, on 2010-December-09, 03:08, said:

Yes (1♦ always promises 4c♦)

I'm not even sure that we play Crowhurst. 2♣ asks 3c Support and strength. (2♦ is natural and non-forcing)

No, Opener can still be 3433.

I'm not sure that it is the correct name for what we play (see '?' in the alert).

2♣ followed by 3♣ is also GF slam try.

misclick playing crowhurst if:

2d denies.....3s or 4h so pard has real clubs....if 3c =slam try in clubs i bid 3c// not 3s

I dont know what crowhurst shows ,...for those who do I defer.

[Free]

Depends a lot on your responses to crowhurst and your continuations. Imo opener has a doubleton ♠ after 2♦. So why don't you just bid 3♣ to introduce your second suit? If there is a slam, you should definitely try to play in ♣ (grand is pretty much laydown when partner has ♣AQxx+).

Now you just set trumps with 3♠ imo, and ask opener to start cuebidding. So 3NT is serious/frivolous, 4♣ now should be 1st or 2nd round control, 5♥ should be voidwood.

[kgr]

Cyberyeti, on 2010-December-09, 04:16, said:

Crowhurst works something like this in the context of a 4 card opening club, I'm not sure how you adjust 2N/3♣ if at all for a short club

1♣-1♠-1N-2♣-

2♦=min, none of the above
2♥=min 4c♥
2♠=min 3c♠
2N=max none of the above (usually 3334)
3♣=max 5c♣
3♦=max 4c♦
3♥=max 4c♥
3♠=max 3c♠

Some people simply rebid 2N with most maximum hands

Then we play mini-crowhurst : We don't have the agreements about 3m

[kgr]

---

Making 7 when ♠ were 2-2. (Maybe partner had ♠J or some Tens, otherwise it looks a very weak opening)
- I thought that 4♣ showed ♣, but my partner (correctly) thought that ♠ fit was set and that 4♣ was control.
- I thought that 4♥ was voidwood, but my partner (probably correct again) thought it was control in ♥ and asked for a ♦ control.
Bidding 3♣ iso 3♠ could have made the bidding go easier, but probably it would go:
1C-1S
1NT-2C
2D-3C
3NT-?? Is 4H voidwood now?
(Probably it is more important to verify why partner didn't bid 2H iso 2D Maybe we don't play real Crowhurst after all)

[Free]

Did your partner really open that hand?

[Cyberyeti]

I don't know how to bid this opposite a potentially short club as I'm not sure how you bid over:

1♣-1♠
1N-2♣
2♥-3♣

to still allow 3N as a contract, but tell partner you do actually have 4 clubs.

Our methods with a 4 card club if you force us to open 1♣ and rebid 1N (instead of a weak 1N or what's below) and ban us from a 2♠ response would be:

1♣-1♠-1N-2♣-2♥-3♣-3N-4♣-5♣-7♣

2♥ = min 4♥
3N = not 3♠ minimum
5♣ I can't tell you how bad this hand is, nothing to cue
7♣ partner has denied the ♥AK, so has at most ♠J, ♥QJ, ♦Q so has either got 6+ clubs to the ace or has ace and queen.

What we'd actually do at teams (where being in 7♠ doesn't really matter) is much more uncomplicated (and I'd consider bidding this way at pairs in a weak field):

1♣-3♥-4♣-4♦-4♠-4N-5N-7♣

3♥ void, give me an exclusion response
4♣ no, my hand's too bad
4♦ don't care, give me an exclusion response
4♠ 1/4
4N Q♣ ?
5N yes but not K♦/A♥

[Fluffy]

kgr, on 2010-December-09, 09:07, said:

- I thought that 4♥ 5♥ was voidwood, but my partner (probably correct again) thought it was control in ♥ and asked for a ♦ control.

Your partner is wrong, he has a limited hand, and has aleady bid a discouraging 3NT, he has no rights to make another discouraging bid over 4♣, he is forced to cue 4♦ or 4♥ if he can.

5♥ is voidshowing. If it asks keycards for you that's fine.

also to note, the standard bid if you desperatelly need a diamond control is 5♣, but maybe in this context it is club void for you.

[ewleongusa]

kgr, on 2010-December-08, 04:09, said:

MP's

---

- Should 4♣ now be control for ♠ or be ♣?
- Should 5♥ be voidwood for ♠?
How do you continue? Will you be able to check for the Queens?

After 2D, I would have bid 3C to set clubs as trumps. Then I would bid 5NT as the grand slam force asking partner to bid 7C holding the top two club honors. While 7S is the higher scoring grand slam, you really want to be in the safer 7C grand slam. For example, 7S will go down on a 4-1 split opposite two small spades while 7C with make opposite C AQxxx.

Eric Leong