[kgr]

---

2H is a conventional bid, but can be passed. So DBL should be take-out then?
Your bid?

[campboy]

This is a matter for agreement. I play double for takeout here, FWIW. If double is for takeout then you seem to have two options: either pass and hope the auction will come back round to you in spades at a reasonably low level, so that you can then double, or bid 3♣. In the unlikely event that opener does have hearts then partner is short and may well have enough for a reopening double.

[Cyberyeti]

Takeout double is normal (you also do it on balanced hands bigger than your 2N range)

Also by convention, some people will play by agreement that 2♦-P-2♥-P-2♠-P-P-3♣ shows ♣/♥

[mgoetze]

I'm not sure I'm allowed to say this in the B/I forum but... with you red and opps white there is a slight chance 2♥ will get passed out even if opener has spades...

[Cyberyeti]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-15, 15:10, said:

I'm not sure I'm allowed to say this in the B/I forum but... with you red and opps white there is a slight chance 2♥ will get passed out even if opener has spades...

Unlikely, unless you take time to think, in which case it's more or less an automatic pass

[Fluffy]

The normal bid with this hand is pass and double any number of spades later

[kgr]

For my occasional partner DBL would have been ♥, but I disagreed and convinced him that DBL is take-out.
I made the error of thinking long before passing. We could make 3NT.
LHO had a 6c♥.
Partner had something like:

---

[gwnn]

I assume you know about penalty OR takeout doubles right?

X=0-2 or 5+ hearts

it's fun and it works, as long as you're not a paranoid who thinks opener will pass with the other major, which he really will never do in real life.

[kgr]

gwnn, on 2010-December-16, 09:56, said:

I assume you know about penalty OR takeout doubles right?
X=0-2 or 5+ hearts

it's fun and it works, as long as you're not a paranoid who thinks opener will pass with the other major, which he really will never do in real life.

I believe everything you say, but I don't think that I will ever play it.
I don't like bids or signals for which partner has to look at his hand to see what it meant.
(with the example hand you still pass then with penalty OR takeout doubles)

[mgoetze]

kgr, on 2010-December-16, 10:36, said:

I don't like bids or signals for which partner has to look at his hand to see what it meant.

You lead the Ace from ♠AK5432. It would be terrible if you had to look at your hand to see what partner's ♠6 means, right?

[gwnn]

no, you don't have to look at your hand. opener will 100% tell you himself. they are too scared to try to pass. I promise

of course the above is only true insofar as we accept that opener will never have the suit that 4th hand tried to show. for example

2♦-p-2♥-x*
p**-2♠-p-??

* penalty of hearts
** well I really do have hearts

now 2nd seat has a bunch of spades and not a lot of points, so he will usually just bid 2 or 3 spades and a little bit of havoc has been wrecked.

[kgr]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-16, 10:53, said:

kgr, on 2010-December-16, 10:36, said:

I don't like bids or signals for which partner has to look at his hand to see what it meant.

You lead the Ace from ♠AK5432. It would be terrible if you had to look at your hand to see what partner's ♠6 means, right?

You know what I intended to say (?), but I don't know if it really exists. Something like: a small card is either distribution of attitude, you will see in your hand what it is.

[kgr]

gwnn, on 2010-December-16, 11:05, said:

no, you don't have to look at your hand. opener will 100% tell you himself. they are too scared to try to pass. I promise

of course the above is only true insofar as we accept that opener will never have the suit that 4th hand tried to show. for example

2♦-p-2♥-x*
p**-2♠-p-??

* penalty of hearts
** well I really do have hearts

now 2nd seat has a bunch of spades and not a lot of points, so he will usually just bid 2 or 3 spades and a little bit of havoc has been wrecked.

Isn't it possible that we are both short in ♥ and that partner passes...certainly against beginners or bad players? Then You play 2♥X when opps have a 6-4 fit?

[gwnn]

I don't understand, who has six hearts, who has four hearts? Could you illustrate it a little better?

Second hand will only pass the double if he has a penalty pass of 2♥.

[kgr]

gwnn, on 2010-December-16, 11:38, said:

I don't understand, who has six hearts, who has four hearts? Could you illustrate it a little better?
Second hand will only pass the double if he has a penalty pass of 2♥.

West Dealer:
(2♦ Multi)-Pass-(2♥ P/C)-DBL
Pass-??
I thought that North would pass here with Short ♥ because he thinks his partner DBL'ed with 5+♥?
What is the advantage of DBL being Take-out or penalty otherwise?

[gwnn]

I suppose I wasn't very clear. 2nd hand always assumes that whatever suit opener shows (by passing or correcting), 4th seat doesn't have.

The advantage is rather obvious: 4th hand has a cheap way of showing hearts, and 2nd seat has a chance to raise.

2♦-p-2♥-x
2♠-3♥: raise

as opposed to

2♦-p-2♥-p
2♠-p-3♠-???

[kgr]

gwnn, on 2010-December-17, 04:03, said:

I suppose I wasn't very clear. 2nd hand always assumes that whatever suit opener shows (by passing or correcting), 4th seat doesn't have.

The advantage is rather obvious: 4th hand has a cheap way of showing hearts, and 2nd seat has a chance to raise.

2♦-p-2♥-x
2♠-3♥: raise

as opposed to

2♦-p-2♥-p
2♠-p-3♠-???

Ok, I see...Thanks for the explanations, but I still don't like it.
2♦-p-2♥-x
Pass-
=> This is vulnerable to a psych of opener with 6c♠

With the initial hand I gave: If I have one more ♥ and partner a singleton it goes:
2♦-p-2♥-x
Pass-3♠/4♠

[gwnn]

I'm sorry but opener really never passes here with spades as I wrote above. It is extremely risky, since 2nd hand could have a legitimate penalty pass and then his partner (3rd hand) will just have to pass it and they're playing 2♥ in a 3-1 fit!

I'm sure you read my post above but you don't believe me. In that case, fine.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

x should be T/O for hearts, I dont have a T/O for hearts, I have a T/O for
spades, so I am passing.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[thebiker]

An interesting idea originally from English expert David Burn is to play double as two-way
ie Takeout or Penalty

The theory is that the opponents normally tell you whether the opener has hearts or spades

If they run - it was a penalty double - otherwise a takeout double
Yes they could double cross you but they are already in a doubled contract so probably won't


regards

Brian Keable
alias "thebiker"