[kgr]

---

3♣ promised a ♠-fit.
What is 4♥ here for you? Strength & ♥ Length or shortage? (And would it be different if East had bid 4♣?)
(If length: what is the difference with 3♥?)

[kgr]

Double post removed

[mgoetze]

Since a forcing 3♥ was available, 4♥ is clearly a splinter. Had East bid 4♣ it is not so clear. In Robson-Segal methods it would show a side-suit but I think most would assume a cuebid (denying a diamond control) without discussion.

[Echognome]

I prefer the rule "In a competitive auction, we can only splinter in the opponents' suits." That would make it clear here that 4♥ is showing length.

[mtvesuvius]

Echognome, on 2010-December-08, 12:39, said:

I prefer the rule "In a competitive auction, we can only splinter in the opponents' suits." That would make it clear here that 4♥ is showing length.

I also generally have that meta-rule, so it would be a long strong second suit for me I think. If discussed though, I'd prefer this to be a splinter.

[Fluffy]

I also only splinter on opponent's suit, however this auction doesn't seem competetive to me any more and would assume splinter. Specially given that 3♥ is avaible.

[Phil]

Echognome, on 2010-December-08, 12:39, said:

I prefer the rule "In a competitive auction, we can only splinter in the opponents' suits." That would make it clear here that 4♥ is showing length.

This.

[mike777]

whatever...

in any case 4h=cuebid and length.......bbo forums over the years says do not cuebid shortness

splinter and other auctions are not this auction..


cuebidding is very very difficult for us at b/i level....

When to bid a and length
k and length
stiff
void
etc....

[nige1]

kgr, on 2010-December-08, 04:14, said:

3♣ promised a ♠-fit.
What is 4♥ here for you? Strength & ♥ Length or shortage? (And would it be different if East had bid 4♣?)
(If length: what is the difference with 3♥?)

---

You need to agree a meaning. Assuming that 3♥ would be a cue-bid, choose a meaning for 4♥ from

• Natural. Simple and moderately useful.
• Splinter. May help partner judge duplication.
• Exclusion RKC showing a ♥ void, so asking partner not to count the ♥A. This last meaning seems the most efficient but is dangerously sophisticated and hard to remember.

[kgr]

Echognome, on 2010-December-08, 12:39, said:

I prefer the rule "In a competitive auction, we can only splinter in the opponents' suits." That would make it clear here that 4♥ is showing length.

This is a rule we agreed upon (I thought already before, but at least after this bidding ).
Maybe splinter is more useful when opps don't seem to compete, but for me it is more important to have clear agreements that we are sure that both of us remember.
We now agreed:
1♠-(2♣)-3♣-(Pass)-??:
- 3♥: Trial with ♥ (needing more help in ♥ then in ♦) OR Slam interest with 4+♥
- 4♥: 4+♥, probably 5. Enough to play 4M, but not (yet) interested to bid more. => 4♥ iso 4♠ to help partner decide if opps bid 5♣. (Bidding ♥ is more useful if RHO dbl'ed or bid 4♣)

[Free]

Depends on what you agree, you can play both ways. Since 3♥ is available, I'd rather suspect 4♥ to be a splinter.

[Echognome]

Just because 3♥ is available does not mean there is no use for a descriptive 4♥ call. In addition, using a frequency argument, the splinter call must be pretty rare. If opener has a splinter, where are the hearts? With the overcaller? with partner? with advancer?

[Fluffy]

Echognome, on 2010-December-09, 12:37, said:

Just because 3♥ is available does not mean there is no use for a descriptive 4♥ call. In addition, using a frequency argument, the splinter call must be pretty rare. If opener has a splinter, where are the hearts? With the overcaller? with partner? with advancer?

You mean a 4♥ descriptive bid expecting LHO to bid 5♣ suddenly when his partner couln't even double 3♣ is very likelly?

[han]

You need an agreement, I prefer splinter.

I don't understand the "where are the hearts" argument. Preemptor can easily have 3, his partner 6 and the cuebidder 4. That leaves a void for opener, so clearly he can have shortness. With a little imagination you can come up with a layout where opener has -3 hearts.

The "only splinter in overcalled suit" rule only applies to our first bid, the way I understand it. For example, if 1C - (1H) - 1S - (p) - 4D is not a splinter, I'm going to be very confused.

[kgr]

han, on 2010-December-13, 05:42, said:

The "only splinter in overcalled suit" rule only applies to our first bid, the way I understand it. For example, if 1C - (1H) - 1S - (p) - 4D is not a splinter, I'm going to be very confused.

...only applies to our first bid...
This is the first time I see this addition.
You mean that if you have first bid another suit, then the rule does not apply anymore? That makes sense with the example you give!

[bucky]

Do you play that 3♣ commits us to game? If not (many play that 3♣ shows inv+), then 3♥ might be viewed as a counter-game-try. And if 3♥ is not length + strength + slam interest, then perhaps you do need the 4♥ bid to convey that meaning. In any case, I do not think 4♥ should be automatically taken as splinter without discussion.

[the hog]

Phil, on 2010-December-08, 22:33, said:

This.

That.

[ewleongusa]

kgr, on 2010-December-08, 04:14, said:

---

3♣ promised a ♠-fit.
What is 4♥ here for you? Strength & ♥ Length or shortage? (And would it be different if East had bid 4♣?)
(If length: what is the difference with 3♥?)

Don't be a genius. With no agreement you show hearts. Responder has to a genuine idiot to go all in at the table and pass when the partnership could very well have a slam.

Eric Leong