[jules101]

NS game

W   N    E    S
     [P]   P   [2♦]
?

♠AQ5
♥K54
♦K6
♣AKQT4


2♦ = weak 2 in ♦

What's your call with West hand?

[jjbrr]

doblo

[gwnn]

15 cards.

[jules101]

Opps! Fingers slipped. 13 cards now!

[gwnn]

double

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Aug 12 2010, 10:34 AM, said:

double

this call is not the problem it is the one coming that is probably tougher

[mikeh]

This is utterly not a problem.

We double....automatic. No second choice.

We then bid 2N over a non-jump advance and 3N over a 2N lebensohl advance. If he makes a non-forcing constructive 3 level bid....over 3♣ I cue bid and over 3Major I raise....we may have slam but I can't bring myself to cue 4♦ without either a better hand or better fit.

If he cuebids....well...he won't....but if he does, we are going to some slam...

[bluecalm]

Quote

but I can't bring myself to cue 4♦ without either a better hand or better fit.

Well positioned K♦ and source of tricks in ♣ would make it at least a cuebid to me (maybe even cuebid and another try).
It seems we have good chances for slam opposite ♥AQxxx and nothing on the side and that's not even 3♥ yet.

[mikeh]

bluecalm, on Aug 12 2010, 02:57 PM, said:

Quote

but I can't bring myself to cue 4♦ without either a better hand or better fit.

Well positioned K♦ and source of tricks in ♣ would make it at least a cuebid to me (maybe even cuebid and another try).
It seems we have good chances for slam opposite ♥AQxxx and nothing on the side and that's not even 3♥ yet.

agreed, but I am concerned that my partner will assume I have 4 card support and I don't think I can clarify the trump length...this is not a hand (or auction) on which to play a 4-3 fit when off the diamond Ace and, since he didn't force to game, at least some other stuff....

I would rather aim low and avoid disappointment than embark on a slam try in which I cannot ever know I have safety even if he eventually co-operates.

It is not as if I can bid 4♦ and learn anything at all about his hand before moving beyond game...he doesn't even have last train available.

I mean, on the auction this is a terrible slam opposite KJx AQxx xx Jxxx and he won't have that good a hand for 4♥ plus he should drive to slam with that if I do cuebid and he has underbid to that extent.

My rule is that when preempted, and one cannot find out what one needs to know, swing low not high. Doesn't always work and I don't always follow it...if only those two subsets meshed better than they do

[ONEferBRID]

mikeh, on Aug 12 2010, 02:34 PM, said:

If he cuebids....well...he won't....but if he does, we are going to some slam...

Why won't partner cuebid ?

The Lebensohl structure over a weak-2D is nebulous at best.
In one Leb2 structure ( I'm not sure what yours is ), the 3♦ cuebid never promises a Diam-stop ( whether direct or slow ) :
-- the direct-denies a 4 card Major
-- the slow-shows BOTH 4 card Majors

The following shows ONE 4+ card Major ( and none promise a Diam-stop and none promise 5 cards ) :
-- 2M with 0-6 hcp
--slow 3M with 7-8 hcp
--direct 3M with 9-11 hcp
--4M with a good 11+

[mikeh]

ONEferBRID, on Aug 12 2010, 06:56 PM, said:

mikeh, on Aug 12 2010, 02:34 PM, said:

If he cuebids....well...he won't....but if he does, we are going to some slam...

Why won't partner cuebid ?

The Lebensohl structure over a weak-2D is nebulous at best.
In one Leb2 structure ( I'm not sure what yours is ), the 3♦ cuebid never promises a Diam-stop ( whether direct or slow ) :
-- the direct-denies a 4 card Major
-- the slow-shows BOTH 4 card Majors

The following shows ONE 4+ card Major ( and none promise a Diam-stop and none promise 5 cards ) :
-- 2M with 0-6 hcp
--slow 3M with 7-8 hcp
--direct 3M with 9-11 hcp
--4M with a good 11+

I used the word 'won't' and then followed it with ..'if he does...' because I was expressing an expectation, not a rule. Thus I meant won't rather than can't. And the reason for my expectation should be easy to glean from realizing that a cue bid is a gf opposite a minimum double, and he would need either a great playing hand or almost all of the missing hcp in order to cue....I don't expect that...but if it happens, colour me happy.

[jules101]

OK - if you chose to double then your pard bids 2♠.

This shows 0-6ish (or is it 0-7?). Either way - it ain't v much.

With more she'll show invitational values by going through Leb, or bidding 3M directly, etc etc.

So what's your next move?

[ONEferBRID]

Over partners 2S advance, I'll go with Mike's call of 2NT.

[bluecalm]

Quote

My rule is that when preempted, and one cannot find out what one needs to know, swing low not high. Doesn't always work and I don't always follow it...if only those two subsets meshed better than they do

I agree with this rule and I agree with you that we can get to hopeless slam.
Here it seems to me that there are more great slams we won't bid if we just raise.
With the hand you gave 6NT is great slam but unfortunately assuming standard methods it will be very difficult to get there.
Seems like difficult problem. I think I couldn't make myself to bid "only" 4♥ here.

Quote

Over partners 2S advance, I'll go with Mike's call of 2NT.

I think this hand is borderline between 2NT and 3NT.
First instinct was 2NT but now I like 3NT. We really don't need much from partner and even J♣ may give us 9 tricks if we are (very) lucky. K♠ and nothing more makes it very good game. Same with A♥.
Those hands won't bid 3NT opposite 2NT for sure. Partner will even have a problem with 2 of those honors and we will miss some laydown games.