[olien]

I'm looking for a 1M-2C relay structure (other than ambra) that can be used. I would like to be able to differentiate between minimum and maximum if possible, and would prefer a symmetric structure. The structure will be used in a precision 5-card major base. We open almost all balanced hands in 14-16 range with 1NT.

Thanks

[kfay]

hanp to the rescue!

[the hog]

1M 2C is asking for strength and distribution; it can be bid on these hand types:

5+C, 12+ HCP
Balanced hand, with or without fit, 12+ points
Limit 3 card raise in partner’s suit
Strong hand with fit. – in this case we can have longer • or H, not very good suit

Developments

1M 2C
2• Any minimum. Over this
2H = GF relay and the responses are as for maximum hands
2S = regardless of which Major was opened, this shows 5C and 3 card support for the Major, 10-11 HCP
2N = 12/13 bal, invitational
3 =  suit, game forcing

1M 2C
2H 4 other M, any strength
Now
2S = relay/2N/3M = invitational
2N = 4522 min
3C = C fragment
3• = •fragment
3H = 6M low shortage
3S = 6M high shortage 11-14
3N = high shortage max 15+
After the above, step asks for range: 1 step = 15-17, 2 steps = 18+

1M 2C
2S 4+, 15+
Now
2N = relay, steps as above

1M 2C
2N One suited hand, 15+
3C Asks
Now
3•/H/S = shortage in •/C/other Major
3N = 6233 or 7222



1M 2C
3C 5M 4•, 15+

1M 2C
3• 5M/5•, 15+

3H 6M/4•, 15+

3S 5M/4•/4 other M, 15-17

3N 5M/4•/4 other M, 18+

[Free]

Dunno if this is ambra, but here's what I play:
2♦ = any min without 4OM (2♥ relay, continues symmetric like 2♠+)
2♥ = any strength, 4OM
2♠ = 4+♦ (2NT relay, continues symmetric like 3♣+)
2NT = singlesuited
3♣ = 5M-4♣
3♦ = 6M-4♣
3♥ = 5-5 with defined shortness
3♠ = 5-5 with defined shortness
3NT = 5440, void OM

After 1M-2♣-2NT-3♣ (or via 2♦):
3♦ = 6+M with shortness (3♥ asks)
3♥ = 6+M without shortness (6322/7222)
3♠ = max, 5M
3NT = min, 5M

After 1M-2♣-2♥-2♠:
2NT = 5440 or 5-5
3♣ = min, 5-4
3♦ = any strength, 6-4 (3♥ asks, then min/min/max/max showing shortness)
3♥ = max, 5-4 with defined shortness
3♠ = max, 5-4 with defined shortness
3NT = max, 5-4-2-2

After 1M-2♣-2♥-2♠-2NT-3♣:
3♦ = min, 5440
3♥ = any strength, 5-5
3♠ = max, 5440 with defined shortness
3NT = max, 5440 with defined shortness

We also have some extra relays to show fit at lower levels, the responses are a bit modified in some cases.

Only disadvantage in this system imo is that you can't show the difference between min/max with 5♠-5♥.

[suokko]

Free, on Dec 2 2009, 11:16 AM, said:

Dunno if this is ambra, but here's what I play:

yes. Ambra based

I think you can't get much better structure after 2♣ relay if you want strength too.

Another options is just not to show the strength because opening is already limited and just use symetric relays like:

2♦ 4+♣ or 3-suited or single suited middle short or 5332
2♥ 4+♦
2♠ 4OM
2NT 5+OM
3♣ high short single suited
3♦ 6322
3♥ 6-3-3-1 or 7-3-2-1
3♠ 7-2-3-1
3NT 7-3-3-0
4♣ 7-3-3-0 extras
4♦+ 8+


after:
2♦-2♥:
2♠ 4♣
2NT 5+♣
3♣ 5440
3♦ 5332
3♥ 6-3-3-1 or 7-3-2-1
...
This isn't perfect system (and doesn't match your 1♣ relays) but refining this idea should result to relative good relays with a few exceptions.


For me Ambra style relays work very well in natural system. Only problems are 5+5+ majors (like free says) and less than optimal single suited structure.
We have continues so that when responder is asking for shortness first step agrees lower of openers suits and next steps is asking for shortness too but higher suit as trumps. If opener "voluntarily" tells the shortness like with 5-5 then first step agrees lower suit and others are cue bids with higher as trumps.
Then we have 3NT as non-serius slam try to limit our combined strength more than just 10-16 or 17-22 for opener.

Why do we play non-serius 3nt? I have a few times passed it in pairs for good results. Also sometimes in IMPs it has been safer spot to play in 3NT.

[shevek]

Preamble
In designing a relay system, one method is to choose your opening bids & responses, then shop around for a relay structure that will unravel shapes.
The other way is to find a relay structure you like - say symmetric - then devise an opening structure that can use it.
Yes, you can use symmetric after 1M - 2C, though it's less than optimal. Symmetric seeks to describe all shapes below 3NT, leaving space at the end for the asker to make slam tries.
The choice has been to focuss on shape at the expense of strength, to allow shapes to come out as low as possible.
In other words, symmetric after 1M - 2C will not work if describer has to split the range in two along the way.
Symmetric seeks to show common shapes by 3D, maybe 3H, leaving asker a slam try below 3NT.
In its usual forms, 5431 & 6331 come out at 3D. Occasionally, interference forces the structure up one step, which is okay. 2 up is playable but undesirable.

The symmetric style is to relay with game interest, intending to break with a limit bid on the invitational hands. If you don't have a game force, you don't want opener jumping too high on unsuitable hands, depriving you of your invite. This affects how opener should show balanced hands, 1-suiters & 2-suiters.

Fibonacci
There are 3 balanced shapes the open 1S in a 5cM system. 5-2-3-3, etc.
After 1S - 2C*, where should you put them?

One possibility is a jump to 3H/S/NT.
Another is 3C. Then asker bids 3D to get you to resolve the doubleton.
You might not fancy those, partly because you may not want to be in game opposite a balanced 11-count. If you want ber able to stop in 2NT, these balanced hands have to be bundled with other hands at 2D or 2H.

That leaves us with 1-suiters (6+) and 2-suiters (& awkward 3-suiters).
It may seem best to jump with the various 1-suiters but 2-suiters need more space, so try this:

1S  2C*

2D  S & D, or bal
2H  & Hs
2S  6+ Ss
2N+  S & C

You could swap the suits around but simpler seems best. Don't want to throw the heart hands in with balanced, in case responder has an invite of 2NT, jeopardising the 4-4 heart fit.
Yes, you could swap clubs and diamonds for right-siding but let's keep it simple.

So 2H = S & H with 5+ spades. Then we have
2H  2S*

2N  5-5
3C  HS (high shortage)
3D  even, so 5-4-2-2
3H  LS, 5-4-3-1 (LS = low shortage)
3S  LS, 6-4-2-1
3N  LS, 6-4-3-0
4C  LS, 7-4-2-0

If opener shows HS via 3C, the endpoints are the same:
2H  2S*
3C  3D*

3H  5-4-1-3
3S  6-4-1-2
3N  6-4-0-3

Compared to usual symmetric, the structure is one step up, which is okay.
For 5-5 hands, see below.
With S & C, you ZOOM straight away to resolve shape:
1S  2C*

2N  5-5 blacks
3C  HS
3D  5-2-2-4
3H  LS, 5-3-1-4
3S  LS, 6-2-1-4
3N  LS, 6-3-0-4

Of course this makes it hard to stop in partscore. Tough!
The six 5431 hands all bid 3H at some stage, avoiding memory strain.
Symmetric trades some effective use of the space for symmetry.

55s come out okay:
1S  2C*
2N  3C*

3D  HS
3H  5-1-1-6 (3NT, canape first) or 6-1-1-5 (4C)
3S  LS, 5-2-1-5
3N  LS, 5-3-0-5

I had to give up something, the three genuine 3-suiters
5-4-4-0, 5-0-4-4, 5-4-0-4. Fudge or see below.

That leaves diamonds OR balanced (or 3-suited?)
1S  2C*
2D  2H*

2S  balanced or 3-suited
2N  5-5
3C  HS
3D  5-2-4-2
3H  LS, 5-3-4-1 etc

If you wish to throw the 3-suiters in with balanced
1S  2C*
2D  2H*
2S  2N*

3C  3-suited, then 3H = 5-4-4-0, 3S = 5-4-0-4, 3NT = 5-0-4-4
3D  5-2-3-3 (HS)
3H  5-3-2-3 (MS)
3S  5-3-3-2 (LS)

The 1-suiters don't fare as well, since the structure is two steps up compared with straight symmetric:

1S  2C*
2S  2N*

3C  HS
3D  MS
3H  semi-balanced but not high (relative shortage) so 6-3-2-2 or 7-2-2-2
3S  LS, 6-3-3-1
3N  LS, 7-3+2-1

This is okay at locating singletons. 6331s all come out at 3S.
1S  2C*
2S  2N*
3C  3D*
3H  HS, semi-balanced so 6-2-2-3 or 6-2-3-2 (maybe don't resolve these)
3S  HS, 6-1-3-3
3N  HS, 7-1-3+2

There's a possible scheme. This is not so tough to learn if you're prepared to do some partnership bidding. It's exactly the same after 1H:
1H  2C
2H  spades
2S  6+ hearts

Then go the next step and adapt it over 1C - postive. Then get onto Slam Point asks and denial cue bidding. It's never-ending ...

[olien]

So, here is what I have found. This is what Lindkvist-Fredin played (I have modified slightly to make more efficient):

1S-2C:
2D 5S(332), 5S(440), S+C
2H S+D
2S 6+S
2N 5+S 4+H, low short
3C 5+S 4+H, equal short (3H=5422, 3S=7411, 3N=6511)
3D 5+S 5+H, high short (3S=5503, 3N=5512, 4C+=6502)
3H 5413
3S 6403
3N 6412
4C+ 7402

The reason that they are not truly numerical, but reversed on 3S and 3NT is so that 3NT can act as the next relay after a 3S bid.

After 1S-2C// 2D-2H:
2S 5(332) or 5(440)
2N+ S+C

after 1S-2C// 2D-2H// 2S-2N:
3C 5(332) (then LMH doubleton, no real need for size ask since implicity limited by failure to open 1N)
3D+ 5440s, then have room for "size ask"

Think what you might, but the only real issues when it comes to having a size ask occurs on the 6+M single suiters, and on the 5512s and 6412s (which both bid 3N).

The single suited structure I'm working with right now is this:

3C "balanced" (then 3H=6223 3S=6232, 3N=6322, 4C+=7222)
3D 7+M, some short (then 3H relay for LMH short)
3H 6331
3S 6313
3N 6133

Obviously, in most cases, there isn't a size ask available. Any suggestions for improving this structure would be welcome. How important do you think it is to be able to show voids on single suiters?

For those that want to suggest 1N be the GF relay, we don't want to do that because we feel it is too "anti-field" (which we are doing by playing a relay system anyways), but we want to play a better system without going anti field. And also because of regulations put on system, 1N as the GF relay is not allowed in most events.

Thanks

[suokko]

You could improve single suited biding by say that 2NT promises fit for openers major when asking for shape so auction is forcing to 4M. Then you can show more extreme shape above 3nt. Now this forces you to do relay break if you have singleton or void in partner's opening suit.

We apply similar to Ambra where 3♣ shape relay promises 2+ card support and 3♦ is looking for info without fit so opener knows not to advertise bad 6 or 7 card suit again. In sequence 1♠-2♣;2NT(16+ single suited)

Also one extra point from Ambra is that jumping to 3 level promises clubs because 2♣ is either clubs, balanced or fit for opener so (preemptive) response at 3 level won't cause problems for responder what to do with unbalanced club hand.

[shevek]

From the other side of the planet, Scandinavian relay systems always seemed tough to learn, perhaps Viking Club suits their stoic natures. Anyway, symmetry should not be discarded lightly.

A few points:
1) High shortage should come before low, because these are the hands where you need space for natural breaks. In other words, hands with major length often end in 4M so okay for zooming.

2) 5422 is common enough to stand alone and not be contaminated with rare 7411s. The space lost for a size ask is often crucial. I guess that's why symmetric puts the 55s first, need an extra step to include 6511s.

3) Point taken about swapping 3S & 3NT responses but we don't do it, partly because interference sends us up & down, which would confuse the endpoints. Also, relayer should be able to bid 3NT to play over 6430.

4) With 1-suiters, quite important to have all the 6331s come out at 3H or lower, though I couldn't manage that with the raised structure I suggested. Bad to have 4C as an SP ask. Remember, 1-suiters start at 2S in classic symmetric, which leaves room to resolve all 6322s , split the 7321s and have 6331s come out at 3D. WIth lack of space, should probably change that but it's not easy.

5) Good to show 7330. Since the structure is up 2 steps, that has to be 4C after you show shortage.

6) Of course, if you want to use space efficiently, switch to 4-cd majors, preferably with transfer openings or 1D = spades.

[olien]

In regards to your statement about 5422s and 7411s here is how our structure works:

3C...equal short

Then after 3D relay:
3H...5422 (3S now SP ask)
3S...7411 (sticking with 3S/N reversal)
3N...6511

Still haven't been able to work out single suiters. Interesting point about why high-to-low short should be used, but an argument can be made for low-to-high short, and that is thatthose hands tend to have a fit/partial fit for relayers C suit if relayer is unbalanced with C (2C was balanced or natural or a hand so strong so that it can (almost) underwrite slam).

Anyways, the sturcture is completely symmetrical.

How about this 1 Suited relay:

3C low "short" (then 3H=6(32)2, 3S=7321, 3N=6331, 4C+=7330 zoom)
3D middle short (then 3S=7312, 3N=6313, 4C+=7303 zoom)
3H 6223 or 7222
3S 7123
3N 6133
4C+ 7033 zoom

Thoughts and ideas please

[akhare]

olien, on Dec 1 2009, 06:43 PM, said:

I'm looking for a 1M-2C relay structure (other than ambra) that can be used.  I would like to be able to differentiate between minimum and maximum if possible, and would prefer a symmetric structure.  The structure will be used in a precision 5-card major base.  We open almost all balanced hands in 14-16 range with 1NT. 

Thanks

Here's a (quasi) symmetric scheme that's easy to remember and works well too -- we didn't use max / min, but use QP ask after shape was resolve (with terminator puppet, Moscito style RKC etc):

2C-GF relay
....2D-four+ clubs OR...four only diamonds
............2S-four only diamonds -> Follow short legged template at 3C+
............2N-five clubs Follow LL template at 3C+
............3C up-four clubs Short legged template
....2H-single-suited with six -> Follow single suited template
....2S-balanced or five diamonds
............3C-balanced with 5 of major Follow 5332 template
............3D-unravels 5M/5Ds -> LL template
....2N-five of other major -> follow LL template at at 3D+
....3C-four of other major, higher shortness Short legged template

[shevek]

akhare, on Dec 5 2009, 01:41 PM, said:

olien, on Dec 1 2009, 06:43 PM, said:

I'm looking for a 1M-2C relay structure (other than ambra) that can be used.  I would like to be able to differentiate between minimum and maximum if possible, and would prefer a symmetric structure.  The structure will be used in a precision 5-card major base.  We open almost all balanced hands in 14-16 range with 1NT. 

Thanks

Here's a (quasi) symmetric scheme that's easy to remember and works well too -- we didn't use max / min, but use QP ask after shape was resolve (with terminator puppet, Moscito style RKC etc):

2C-GF relay
....2D-four+ clubs OR...four only diamonds
............2S-four only diamonds -> Follow short legged template at 3C+
............2N-five clubs Follow LL template at 3C+
............3C up-four clubs Short legged template
....2H-single-suited with six -> Follow single suited template
....2S-balanced or five diamonds
............3C-balanced with 5 of major Follow 5332 template
............3D-unravels 5M/5Ds -> LL template
....2N-five of other major -> follow LL template at at 3D+
....3C-four of other major, higher shortness Short legged template

Yes, 2H with the 1-suiters is probably right.
You miss the 5440 hands but there are only 3 & you can fudge (as 5530?).

There are other good permutations, such as

2D = 4+ diamonds or bal or 5-5 majors
2H = 6+
2S = 4 in other major (not 5-5)
2N+ = 4+ clubs

Certainly, saving that step on 1-suiters, having 6331s at 3H would please Olien.

[shevek]

Of course, don't need a spot for 55M hands after opening 1H so the 5440s with five hearts can take their place.

[icer]

Hi!...here is one way.

1M-2C:
2D 5M(332), 5M(440), M+C
2H*
2S balanced or 3-suited
2N 5-5
3C*
3D HS
3H both short
3S 5M 5C 1D-2oM
3N 5M 5C 0D-3oM
4C 5M 6C+ 0D
4D 6M+ 5C 0D
4M = to play
4oM = asks controls
4N = RKC M
3C HS
3D 5M-4C and 2-2
3H 5M-4C and 1D-3oM
3S 6M-4C and 1D-2oM
3N 6M-4C and 0D-3oM
4C 7M-4C and 1-1 MAX (other twin=min)
4D 7M+-4C and 0D
4M = to play
4oM = asks controls
4N = RKC M
2H M+D
2S M+oM (after 1H opening exactly 4S...then 5M+ 4X structure)
2N*
3C 5S 4H 1S opening structure(more shapes)
3D 6S 4H
3H 5S 5H
3S+ Freaks?
2N 6-7M no shortness
3C 6M+ 0-1oM
3D 6M+ 0-1D (1 step higher)
3H 6M 1C and 3-3
3S 7M 1C and (3-2)
3N 7M 0C and 3-3
4C 8M+ 1C
4D 8M+ 0C
4M = to play
4oM = asks controls
4N = RKC M

[gwnn]

Hi icer! hvað segirtu gott?? nice to see you

[akhare]

shevek, on Dec 6 2009, 12:03 AM, said:

Yes, 2H with the 1-suiters is probably right.
You miss the 5440 hands but there are only 3 & you can fudge (as 5530?).

There are other good permutations, such as

2D = 4+ diamonds or bal or 5-5 majors
2H = 6+
2S = 4 in other major (not 5-5)
2N+ = 4+ clubs

Certainly, saving that step on 1-suiters, having 6331s at 3H would please Olien.

Omitting 5440s was a deliberate choice -- as noted, they can be shown as 5530 or 5431. Given their rarity, it really doesn't matter one way or the other...