[nick_s]

Hi,

This thread http://forums.bridge...showtopic=33118 got me wondering about requirements for a 2-level overcall.

I understand the motivation for allowing a lighter overcall with a 6-card suit, and it seems that it's becoming something of an expert standard.

Of the people that consider xxx xx Kx AQxxxx an acceptable 2♣ overcall at favorable vulnerability, do you have a rule of thumb in mind?

I notice that this hand for instance has 7 losers and (almost) 2 defensive tricks. Is that the kind of thing you look at? I realize that rules of thumb are just a starting point, just as they are for opening bids. But I think that a partnership agreement about what constitutes an acceptable 2-level overcall has to start somewhere.

Thanks

[Mbodell]

I think of it more as a set of things. Consider:

1- Values of an opening hand.

2- Defensive values (I.e., 2 tricks on defense).

3- A good suit for partner to lead.

Overcalling at the 1 level in many situations I may be ok with only having one of the 3 from above (assuming it is a really good example of that).

Overcalling at the 2 level I'll want to have at least 2 of the 3 most of the time.

IMO the hand you give fails 1 above, although it is kind of close. Passes number 2 above, although it is kind of close. Passes number 3 quite reasonably. Therefore this seems pretty reasonable, especially at favorable vul.

There are obviously other considerations too, one of which being how preemptive is your bid? I'll stretch to bid 2♣ over opponents 1♦, but not so much over opponents 1♠. Similarly at the 1 level a 1♠ overcall of 1♣ is a little more appealing than of 1♥ IMO. An aspect of this too is how likely I think they've found the right fit. If they likely have, I'm less likely to overcall. If I'm super short in an unmentioned major, I'm more likely to overcall to give them less room to explore for a possible fit and level.

[Quantumcat]

My captain in an event I just played gave us a long lecture on competitive bidding. It was really useful. When deciding whether to overcall, he said to consider these things:

1. Will this help us get to a game if we have one
2. Will this take any space away from the opponents
3. Will we go for a number
4. Do I want my partner leading this suit
5. Are we even going to buy the contract (partscores)
6. Am I inducing a correct sac from partner

Number 1: if your partner is not passed, be consistently a decent hand so he knows when game is a possibility (if you overcall any time you have a 6 card suit and some shape, he will learn to not bother looking for game when it's cold)

Number 2: Unless you are achieving several other things (getting a good lead, inducing a good sac, winning a partscore) .. not much point bidding if it won't induce any bidding mistakes from the opponents

Number 3: Your suit should include many middle cards if vul, because the opponents will be more likely to choose defence than offence if you are vul. Opponents cannot penalise you unless they hold jacks, tens and nines. You can't penalise someone with a holding of A543. QJT987 is a much better suit than AK5432.

Number 4: You should have the chance of achieving lots of good things (winning partscore, finding game, etc) if you are risking your partner giving away the contract with a lead from king doubleton because you had a bad suit.

Number 5: Don't just bid because you can. If you are unlikely to buy the contract, don't tell the opponents how to play their game. How many times have you taken a bizarre but perfectly right line in a game because an opponent bid Michaels?

Number 6: In pre-empting or just overcalling, if you have more defence than offence, you may find your partner taking a phantom sac when the opponents can't make their contract. It's ok if you are expected to be constructive (p not passed, vul) but if it is a situation where your bid doesn't need to be you may find yourself in a few phantom sacs.

In summary, look at how many good things your bid can acheive, and if there are no or only one type of risk, then it's ok to bid. If there are more than one bad thing that can happen, reconsider your bid or don't bid at all.

[the hog]

..

[mike777]

nonexpert answer:
1) over 1d my 2c overcalls are minimum but very often.
2) Assume my other two level overcalls are sound. if they are not blame me.

[Codo]

2 ♣ over 1 ♦ is a very special situation.

YOu take away as much bidding space as possible by bidding the suit one below "their" suit. And both majors are still there. So this situation often creates big problems for the opponents to find their major suit fit at the right level.

This is why Sabine Auken and others recommend to make this overcall as often as possible and to lighten the requirements for your 2/1 bid in this particular situation.

So the given hand is an easy 2 Club bid over 1 Diamond but at the lower end after a 1 Spade opening. In fact, most people with a conservative view on bidding may even pass with the given hand.

[y66]

Agree with The_Hog. Hard to improve on that.

[Quantumcat]

2C isn't as good as it looks. It lets the responder show 4-4 in the majors with one bid, and if he has only one, or none, then opener will probably make a takeout double. If neither can make a takeout double you are probably going to go a few off, if you bid 2C whenever you have the excuse: responder will be long in your suit if he passes, otherwise he would have a 2D bid if he has no double. Making bad 2C bids when they can bid will get you bad leads from your partner, bad club sacs from your partner, and going for a number doubled or just too many off undoubled. Also if you have a real bid and your p is used to crap bids you will miss out on game sometimes. Sometimes you might get to a good 3C contract over their 2-major, or win in 2C when it only goes 1 off or makes and they can make 2 major but couldnt find it (which requires special distribution, you would be more likely to go off if neither can bid [and don't forget 3D beats 3C]) but that is only 2 good occasional things compared to lots of common bad things with making bad 2C overcalls... so in my opinion it pays to have good 2C bids even after a 1d bid.

[the hog]

Quantumcat, on Jul 27 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

2C isn't as good as it looks. It lets the responder show 4-4 in the majors with one bid, and if he has only one, or none, then opener will probably make a takeout double. If neither can make a takeout double you are probably going to go a few off, if you bid 2C whenever you have the excuse: responder will be long in your suit if he passes, otherwise he would have a 2D bid if he has no double. Making bad 2C bids when they can bid will get you bad leads from your partner, bad club sacs from your partner, and going for a number doubled or just too many off undoubled. Also if you have a real bid and your p is used to crap bids you will miss out on game sometimes. Sometimes you might get to a good 3C contract over their 2-major, or win in 2C when it only goes 1 off or makes and they can make 2 major but couldnt find it (which requires special distribution, you would be more likely to go off if neither can bid [and don't forget 3D beats 3C]) but that is only 2 good occasional things compared to lots of common bad things with making bad 2C overcalls... so in my opinion it pays to have good 2C bids even after a 1d bid.

Sabine Auken would strongly disagree with you, and funnily , I agree with her.

Your premise is incorrect anyway, as responder with a good hand and one Major will be required to mak a t/o double. If opener has the other Major, major, (pun intended), problems can arise.
Further , bridge is a partnership game, not a game played by yourself with yourself, hence your partner and you have no doubt discussed that 2C over 1D should be bid at ever possible opportunity, so "you will miss out on game sometimes" does not apply.

[Quantumcat]

But if you agree that 2C be bid over 1D at every possible opportunity, you will miss out on game more often (you have a good hand, but partner passes since you could be very bad).

[the hog]

Quantumcat, on Jul 27 2009, 10:18 AM, said:

But if you agree that 2C be bid over 1D at every possible opportunity, you will miss out on game more often (you have a good hand, but partner passes since you could be very bad).

Only if you don't discuss competitive bidding with your partner, Quantumcat.

[Quantumcat]

I don't understand. The reason you miss out on game is BECAUSE you discussed it?

[the hog]

No.
(1D) 2C (P)

Partner will not bid 3NT on all 13 counts. Pd will know how to continue via a cue raise and a sensitive 2NT bid. Anyway, the losses are far outweighed by the gains. I suggest you google Auken's ideas on this.

[Quantumcat]

What I meant was when overcaller has something in the range 14-18. Do you try for game on an 11 count with short clubs, and end up in 2NT down three because you had a misfitting 18 HCP between you? If you don't, then you miss all the games when overcaller is between 14 and 18 hcp. Not to mention all the games when you have a mere 8 or 9 HCP. Anybody can try for game when they have 13 HCP.

[Fluffy]

My style is so damn far from standard, but that's what I do:

2 level overcall: opening values AND 6 card suit (this is sounder that what you ever imagined I guess)

When I have a light overcall with a good 6 card suit, I just preempt at the 3 level, this takes away even more space that you would with the 2 level overcall and carries the message for partner that you are limited.

[pooltuna]

Quantumcat, on Jul 26 2009, 10:18 PM, said:

But if you agree that 2C be bid over 1D at every possible opportunity, you will miss out on game more often (you have a good hand, but partner passes since you could be very bad).

Nevertheless adding noise to the opponents auction increases their imprecision and the negative X may be 3-4 or 4-3 in the majors. If I was barred from bidding 2♣ my second choice would be 3♣.

[Cascade]

Fluffy, on Jul 29 2009, 01:50 AM, said:

My style is so damn far from standard, but that's what I do:

2 level overcall: opening values AND 6 card suit (this is sounder that what you ever imagined I guess)

When I have a light overcall with a good 6 card suit, I just preempt at the 3 level, this takes away even more space that you would with the 2 level overcall and carries the message for partner that you are limited.

Is this just for 2minor or does it also apply to (1♠) 2♥?