[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

My 2♦ shows 6

Ok, and what do you bid with 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and 3 clubs,
and a hand to weak to make a reverse?

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 26 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

My 2♦ shows 6

Ok, and what do you bid with 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and 3 clubs,
and a hand to weak to make a reverse?

1nt

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 26 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

My 2♦ shows 6

Ok, and what do you bid with 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and 3 clubs,
and a hand to weak to make a reverse?

1nt

1NT with a singleton is not usually a good idea for a rebid. This would be an exception to 2D showing six, or--some people use 2C here as an agreed system bid, or just as a noise to get out of the problem and create a different problem.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 26 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

My 2♦ shows 6

Ok, and what do you bid with 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and 3 clubs,
and a hand to weak to make a reverse?

1nt

Hi,

1NT is sometimes a good alternative option, if your 5 card suit is bad,
and your honors are in the side suits.
But unless you always reverse with 15HCP onwards, you run the risk
of telling two lies, one about the shape of your hand, the other about
your general strength.
One reason, it is dangerous to mislead partner about your shape is,
that methods like NMF / two way checkback dont work to well, if you
too often deviate from the standard shape requirement.

I would suggest, that you think over this decision another time.

Nevertheless I believe the style should be playable, also he is certainly
non standard.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mikeh]

Lots of stuff here.

1. 1♦ then 2♣ then 3♦ traditionally (and for me, still) shows a 6=4 with extra values... this hand is close... were it the Kx spades and x in heart, it would be clear

2.Whether one rebids 2♦ with say 1=4=5=3 normal opening is partly a matter of style. Even if one is used, by system, to rebidding 1N with this pattern, surely there are hand types on which 2♦ is preferable. And for those of us who prefer 1N to deliver xx or better for partner (so he can pull to 2♠ safely, amongst other reasons) sometimes we mark time with 2♣ on a 3 card suit.

3. Having chosen, reasonably enough, to rebid 2♦, 2♠ is abominable imo. 3♣ seems misdirected... it is not impossible that clubs is our fit, but if it is we may still get there after 2N... altho we can no longer play 3♣. Not a big loss in the grand scheme of things. 2N seems logical to me.

4. Is 2N forcing? I don't see how it can or should be, unless we are playing 2♥ as (in essence) game force. Partner with say 5=4=1=3 10 count... just what the heck did we expect him to bid? last round or next? BTW, any bid by him now should, imo, be gf.

[the hog]

Hanoi5, on Jul 26 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

3♣, though I probably should have bid clubs before.

3C here would not be natural, but 4th suit forcing, asking for a stopper.

[ONEferBRID]

skaeran, on Jul 26 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 05:18 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 25 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

I might have bid 2C on the previous round. I will bid 2NT now. Really the C T is an excellent card here.

Which is weaker 2♣ or 2♦?

None of them.

Bidding 6-6-4 is weaker than 6-4-6.

Although I agree with the 3C bid now rather than earlier,
2NT ( nonforcing ) looks better. Not only is the CT a good card, the HK has been elevated.

[655321]

aguahombre, on Jul 26 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 26 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

My 2♦ shows 6

Ok, and what do you bid with 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and 3 clubs,
and a hand to weak to make a reverse?

1nt

1NT with a singleton is not usually a good idea for a rebid. This would be an exception to 2D showing six, or--some people use 2C here as an agreed system bid, or just as a noise to get out of the problem and create a different problem.

This is just wrong, of course. Jillybean is correct, 1NT is usually the only rebid with 1453.

[jillybean]

655321, on Jul 26 2009, 01:45 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Jul 26 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 26 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

My 2♦ shows 6

Ok, and what do you bid with 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and 3 clubs,
and a hand to weak to make a reverse?

1nt

1NT with a singleton is not usually a good idea for a rebid. This would be an exception to 2D showing six, or--some people use 2C here as an agreed system bid, or just as a noise to get out of the problem and create a different problem.

This is just wrong, of course. Jillybean is correct, 1NT is usually the only rebid with 1453.

I think its just a matter of style, theres no perfect system to cater for every hand. Yet another thing to discuss with your partner.

[Fluffy]

The_Hog, on Jul 26 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

Hanoi5, on Jul 26 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

3♣, though I probably should have bid clubs before.

3C here would not be natural, but 4th suit forcing, asking for a stopper.

Sorry Ron, but you don't know Hannoi's system better than him .

I play everything from opener as natural, but when the suit has been denied and it is the 4th suit it shows the lonelly ace (Ax or Axx). A reasonable option with this cards, but I prefer 2NT

[skjaeran]

ONEferBRID, on Jul 26 2009, 08:31 PM, said:

skaeran, on Jul 26 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 05:18 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 25 2009, 11:58 PM, said:

I might have bid 2C on the previous round. I will bid 2NT now. Really the C T is an excellent card here.

Which is weaker 2♣ or 2♦?

None of them.

Bidding 6-6-4 is weaker than 6-4-6.

Yes, we all agree on that. But that wasn't the question. The question was what's weaker the previous round of 2♣ and 2♦. The answer to that is none of them. The minimum strength for both is the same - a minimum opener in your style.

It's true that the 2♣ rebid can include stronger hands (of several types) than the 2♦ rebid though.

[vuroth]

655321, on Jul 26 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Jul 26 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

1NT with a singleton is not usually a good idea for a rebid.  This would be an exception to 2D showing six, or--some people use 2C here as an agreed system bid, or just as a noise to get out of the problem and create a different problem.

This is just wrong, of course. Jillybean is correct, 1NT is usually the only rebid with 1453.

I realize this is quite common, but I hate it.

[mikeh]

655321, on Jul 26 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Jul 26 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jul 26 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

jillybean, on Jul 26 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

My 2♦ shows 6

Ok, and what do you bid with 1 spade, 4 hearts, 5 diamonds and 3 clubs,
and a hand to weak to make a reverse?

1nt

1NT with a singleton is not usually a good idea for a rebid. This would be an exception to 2D showing six, or--some people use 2C here as an agreed system bid, or just as a noise to get out of the problem and create a different problem.

This is just wrong, of course. Jillybean is correct, 1NT is usually the only rebid with 1453.

This simply is NOT true.

What is true is that there is a school of thought that plays it this way, and they do so because they believe it to be the most effective way of handling this pattern, and that the undoubted cost to other auctions of the uncertaintly engendered by this approach is worth incurring ....or... as is so often the case amongst the majority of players... they don't think about cost-benefit... they just adopt something they heard of somewhere.

There is another school of thought that holds that the cost of rebidding 1N with a stiff is too high to make the approach worthwhile... altho some of the '1N promises at least 2 card support' crowd probably play it from inertia: they learned it this way and changing makes life too complex for them.

I don't generally play that 1N is the appropriate rebid on 1=4=5=3.... I admit to being slightly old-fashioned... I'd usually rebid 2♦ with a good suit or 2♣... with, usually, a preference for that call. Since I almost never open 1♦ with 4=5, my partners will rarely pass me in a 3-3 fit.

I would rebid 1N with a stiff A or K, and maybe Q.

[ArtK78]

Interesting discussion.

Everyone seems to be assuming that 2♥ is forcing. For those of us who play Extended PLOB, the 2♥ bid would be nonforcing (3♣ would be artificial and forcing). This would leave opener with three choices:

(1) take a preference to 2♠, expecting to play a 5-2 fit (I suppose 6-2 is possible, but unlikely).
(2) rebid 3♣, hoping that partner is either 5404 or 5422 or 5431, but not 5413.
(3) rebid 2NT nonforcing and hope to find 8 tricks in that contract.

I would bid 2♠, getting out at the lowest possible playable contract.

If 2♥ is forcing, 2NT seems to be a standout bid.

[Fluffy]

ArtK78, on Jul 27 2009, 08:24 PM, said:

Interesting discussion.

Everyone seems to be assuming that 2♥ is forcing. For those of us who play Extended PLOB, the 2♥ bid would be nonforcing (3♣ would be artificial and forcing). This would leave opener with three choices:

Impressive, my pick up expert partner on a TM left me on this very same sequence when I rebid 2♥ on something like:

AQJxxx
KQx
Qx
xx

I though that he should be the only person on earth to believe this sequence its non forcing, but obviously that's not true .

I don't mean to be harsh, this method has obvious upside of playing 2♥ but I think it is a small target.

If you have to rebid 3♣ with this, how do you find about club stopper?

[the hog]

Fluffy, on Jul 27 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 26 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

Hanoi5, on Jul 26 2009, 09:40 PM, said:

3♣, though I probably should have bid clubs before.

3C here would not be natural, but 4th suit forcing, asking for a stopper.

Sorry Ron, but you don't know Hannoi's system better than him .

I play everything from opener as natural, but when the suit has been denied and it is the 4th suit it shows the lonelly ace (Ax or Axx). A reasonable option with this cards, but I prefer 2NT

Fluffy, Hanoi can play whatever he wants, but if you are going to make a post which contains bidding that is not standard, then you should explain the bidding. Agree? 3C here is 4th suit forcing for practically everyone. Why show a 4th suit naturally when 3 have already been bid?

[ONEferBRID]

I agree with those who say 3C by Opener is natural.

If anything, I would play Responder's "cheapest" new suit forcing ( 2H!)--and may be artificial--over Opener's 2minor rebid, analogous to NMF over a 1NT rebid.

[the hog]

As you agree with the one poster who said he plays 3C as natural, perhaps you could explain the raitionale to me as to why when 3 suits are bid one should feel this compunction to show that one posesses the fourth?

[mike777]

i bid 3nt 2 or 3 days ago.

May we please,,,,,please move on to next deal.....you are way too slow!

[the hog]

mike777, on Jul 28 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

i bid 3nt 2 or 3 days ago.

May we please,,,,,please move on to next deal.....you are way too slow!

Oh thats right, you are the one who went 3 off aren't you?