[EricK]

Scoring: MP

---

Can you diagnose the 13 cold top tricks and bid to 7NT?

Playing with an intermediate level partner, our auction (please promise you won't laugh) was
1♠ 3♦
3NT 6NT
Not a thing of beauty, but at least we got to a slam and beat the pairs in 6♥!

But even after a saner start like
1♠ 2♦
2♥
it doesn't seem all that easy.

[quiddity]

How about 1S-2C; 2H-3H; 4C-4S (diamond control and spade honor), followed by keycard?
Or 1S-2D; 2H-3H; 3S-4S and keycard?

[kenrexford]

Opener: 1♠
Responder: 2♣
Opener: 2♥
Responder: 3♥ (trumps set)
Opener: 3♠ (two of the top three spades)
Responder: 3NT (serious interest -- the known solid spades and primes)
Opener: 5♦ (Exclusion RKCB)
Responder: 5♥ (two, without)
Opener: 5♠ (do you have the missing spade?)
Responder: 6♣ (yes, plus the club King)

At this point, Opener can count, if hearts split 3-2 (or the suit can otherwise be picked up), an assured four hearts, five spades, and four clubs in pure tricks, plus at least one ruff, for 14+ tricks. But, he might as well push forward with more questions, in case 7NT is better. So...

Opener: 6♦ (grand slam last train -- will bid 7♥ anyway, probably, but...)
Responder: 7♦ (I have this Ace)
Opener: 7NT

With five sure spades, three sure hearts, one sure diamond, four sure clubs, Opener has 13 tricks even if hearts split 4-0 or 5-1.

[jdonn]

If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point.

[Cascade]

Its an easy relay hand

1♣ 1NT
2♣ 2♦
2♥ 2NT
3♣ 4♦
4♥ 5♥
5♠ 5NT
7NT

1♣ 16+

1NT 8+ Bal

2♣, 2♥, 3♣, 4♥, 5♠ all relays

2♦ hearts and diamonds or spades and clubs or 4-3-3-3 with a major

2NT doubleton spade so 2=4=4=3

4♦ 7 controls

5♥ top honour (A,K or Q) in every suit no second honour in hearts

5NT no second honour in diamonds

so now responder must be

Qx
Axxx
Axxx
AKx

[mike777]

EricK, on Jun 9 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

---

Can you diagnose the 13 cold top tricks and bid to 7NT?

Playing with an intermediate level partner, our auction (please promise you won't laugh) was
1♠ 3♦
3NT 6NT
Not a thing of beauty, but at least we got to a slam and beat the pairs in 6♥!

But even after a saner start like
1♠ 2♦
2♥
it doesn't seem all that easy.

Seems many roads lead to 7H.....7nt is a bit tougher to find.

[the hog]

This is a baby hand for any decent relay system, Erik.
Playing a natural system., I find the 2C bids by some posters contrived.

[jdonn]

I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 01:38 PM, said:

I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion.

Do you make this psyche against beginners?

[Phil]

Cascade, on Jun 9 2009, 09:20 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 01:38 PM, said:

I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion.

Do you make this psyche against beginners?

Yes.

I also alert it.

[Codo]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 08:32 AM, said:

If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point.

AS so often, Josh is right on track. With an int. partner bid KC.

And later discuss that 1 ♠ 2 ♦ is already forcing and that
1 ♠ 2 ♦
2♥ 3 ♥ is best played as GF with SI even in a non 2/1 system.

In a natural system, I had bid

1 ♠ 2 ♦
2♥ 3♥
3♠ 3 NT (Cue, serious)
4♥ 4 NT (Cannot cue shortness in D, RCKB)
5 ♠ 5 NT (2+Q, kings?)
7♥ (I have the solid spades and immense ruffing values, must be enough)

[jdonn]

Cascade, on Jun 9 2009, 09:20 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 01:38 PM, said:

I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion.

Do you make this psyche against beginners?

Trying to be clever? Back to the drawing board I hope...

[EricK]

jdonn, on Jun 9 2009, 11:32 PM, said:

If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point.

After eg
1♠ 2♦
2♥ 4NT (assume it's Keycard Blackwood with ♥ agreed)
5♠ (2 plus ♥Q)
how does responder know about the ♠K?

And (this is in response to Ken, really) if responder supports ♥ first, does a 3♠ cue-bid really promise two top honours? How does does opener bypass to spades to cue something else with either zero or one top honour? This is a good idea on this hand, but not so good on many others I would think.

And in response to Codo, in your sequence, how does opener know about the solid spades?

[Codo]

EricK, on Jun 10 2009, 04:44 PM, said:

And in response to Codo, in your sequence, how does opener know about the solid spades?

Opener knows that responder ist still trying for grand slam despite his failure to cuebid a minor. So far opener has shown 54?? and two KCs with the queen of hearts. He could have Axxxx,KQxxx,Qx,Qx and bid the same way. So now he knows that the grand slam must be real good bet.

[Cascade]

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 07:12 PM, said:

Cascade, on Jun 9 2009, 09:20 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 10 2009, 01:38 PM, said:

I would respond 2♣ 10000% of the time, I just saw no point in saying so since it wasn't relevant to the points I was making and always sidetracks the discussion.

Do you make this psyche against beginners?

Trying to be clever? Back to the drawing board I hope...

Bidding your third best suit at your first opportunity seems like a gross misstatement of your suit length to me.

[ajm218]

Seems pretty easy to reach on any 2/1 normal sequence

I'm a 100000% 2♣ bidder too - i didn't use to bid 2♣ when i started playing 2/1 on these hands but experience and good partners have convinced me its completely automatic to...

[Cascade]

Bidding

1♠ 2♦
2♥ 3♥ ...

is silly unless you have specifically agreed that this is forcing. Since 3♥ may well end the auction.

With responder's 19 HCP you need to bid 4th suit forcing or force in some other way e.g. RKCB at your second turn to bid.

If RKCB is not used then this is likely to be the point at which this hand becomes difficult for standard (non 2/1 GF) systems. Many pairs will not have firm agreements for this auction. Especially when both partner's have extra values that are difficult to show.

We might bid ...

1♠ 2♦
2♥ 3♣
4NT ...

Natural and quantitative - about 15-17

Responder can almost pinpoint opener's hand now:

♠ AKxxx
♥ KQxx
♦ x
♣ QJx

is a minimum and we might be discouraged with this minimum with only one club stopper and no known fit. So I would be expecting something extra from opener for 4NT. And therefore can almost bid 7NT directly here.

[kenrexford]

EricK, on Jun 10 2009, 02:44 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 9 2009, 11:32 PM, said:

If you want something simple since you have an intermediate level partner, after opener's 2♥ rebid responder could simply bid blackwood (he could set trumps first if need be) and the keycards and spade king give him 12 top tricks. 13 could come from the jack of spades, ten of spades with Jx falling, a 3-3 spade break, a sixth spade, the queen of clubs, the jack of clubs with the queen falling, the queen of diamonds with a finesse, or the ever-present 'could be a squeeze'. Seems like way more than is needed to chance 7NT to me. Even if you didn't think so, reaching 7♥ would be very easy, it involves responder bidding keycard for hearts at any point.

After eg
1♠ 2♦
2♥ 4NT (assume it's Keycard Blackwood with ♥ agreed)
5♠ (2 plus ♥Q)
how does responder know about the ♠K?

And (this is in response to Ken, really) if responder supports ♥ first, does a 3♠ cue-bid really promise two top honours? How does does opener bypass to spades to cue something else with either zero or one top honour? This is a good idea on this hand, but not so good on many others I would think.

And in response to Codo, in your sequence, how does opener know about the solid spades?

For my part, yes. Opener's 3♠ does show two top spade honors. You ask how does partner bypass spades to cue something else with no or only one spade control. The answer is that he bids something other than 3♠, and so does it.

Now, the presence or lack of one spade control may govern whether Opener is or is not "serious" in some situations.

[kenrexford]

I also don't get why the same stupid discussions keeps getting run through again.

2♣ is an obvious, non-copntrived response for many of us. As proof, read the bridge base forums.

[gnasher]

After 1♠-2♦ (not GF); 2♥-3♣, I'd bid 4♣, showing the values for 4NT with this precise shape.

This is unexplored territory for me, but over that 5♥ must be forcing and setting trumps, then maybe 5♠-5NT (GSF); 6♥ (two)-7♦ (pick a grand); 7NT.