[xcurt]

♠K32, ♥AT52, ♦AQ64, ♣Q7, FAV, XIMPs, everyone seems good at this table. RHO deals, opponents don't bid.

1NT*-3♦**
?

* 15-17
** both minors gf

Worth a move and if so, what?

[OleBerg]

4♦. Partner had a reason to bid 3♦. If it was to get to the best game, it must be 5♦. If it was to invite slam, I'm game.

[Phil]

3♥ looks fine for whatever pard has in mind. I still have a relative (although working) minimum and if pard wants to try 3N with a supposed spade card, who am I to disturb it?

[rogerclee]

I bid 3♥ planning on later bidding diamonds.

I would never play 3N after this start.

[mtvesuvius]

3♥ first. I'll cooperate with whatever partner does now.

[kenrexford]

Objection!!!

You play 3♦ as GF with both minors, but you have no further agreements here?

A suggestion -- flags. Opener bids 3♥ to accepts clubs (lower ranking) and 3♠ to accept diamonds (higher ranking).

Life is easier if you know what trumps are.

[hanp]

Just bid 3H to ask for shortness.

[kenrexford]

hanp, on May 1 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

Just bid 3H to ask for shortness.

I assume that 3♠ shows the obvious and 3NT shows heart shortness? Then, I assume Declarer can set trumps later if interested?

I mean, flags also ask the same question. 3♥ would focus clubs and ask for shortness in the same way. The cost is that 3♠ preempts us past 3NT when the shortness is spades, such that Opener cannot get it to 3NT when that is right only opposite short spades. The benefit is that trumps are set.

I wonder which is better.

[edit -- later I realized that I had forgotten the solution -- see below]

[gnasher]

Playing 3M as artificial means that you can't use it to show something like Qxx AQJx in the majors, where you probably want to play 5m opposite a ♠x or ♠xx, but 3NT opposite ♠xxx or ♠Ax.

[jdonn]

Phil, on May 1 2009, 03:11 AM, said:

3♥ looks fine for whatever pard has in mind. I still have a relative (although working) minimum and if pard wants to try 3N with a supposed spade card, who am I to disturb it?

The person with a really good hand for slam in a minor that you haven't yet shown partner?

gnasher, on May 1 2009, 12:30 PM, said:

Playing 3M as artificial means that you can't use it to show something like Qxx AQJx in the majors, where you probably want to play 5m opposite a ♠x or ♠xx, but 3NT opposite ♠xxx or ♠Ax.

Asking for shortness is a reasonable compromise on that, at least you can find out if partner is short in your weak suit or not. I think it's the best combination of searching for game and investigating slam without bypassing 3NT. "Flags" like Ken suggests don't do much to investigate 3NT, as you say.

[Trinidad]

To me, it seems obvious to set diamonds as trump. You have four of them and you have your secondary honors in the minors. On top of that, you have excellent controls. 6♦ could easily be a claimer where 3NT could be down.

How you set diamonds as trump depends entirely on your agreements. If you need to bid 4♦ to do that, then you should go for more effective continuations.

Rik

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on May 1 2009, 12:47 PM, said:

"Flags" like Ken suggests don't do much to investigate 3NT, as you say.

Sure it does.

If you want to set clubs as trumps for future reference, you bid 3♥ to flag clubs, and you can handle either a 3♠ or a 3NT answer.

If you want to set diamonds as trumps for future reference, you bid 3♠ to flag diamonds, and you can handle a 3NT response, which may be the only one you care about.

If you want to flag diamonds, but you want to play 3NT if partner has spade shortness (assuming steps, where 4♣ would show spade shortness), then you lie and bid 3♥, planning to correct the eventual club contract to diamonds. You also discuss with partner that 3♥...correct-to-diamonds says you wanted to play 3NT if partner had held a short spade. If partner does show a short spade, and you do not pass, then you really did want to flag clubs. If partner shows a short heart, and you then bid 3NT, you really did want to flag clubs. If partner shows a short heart, and you do not bid 3NT, then you might later correct clubs to diamonds.

Plus, if you want, you can flag a minor just for funsies, to throw the opponents off.

[jdonn]

Come on. Are you seriously suggesting:

3♥ shows a club fit over which responder can show shortage without bypassing 3NT. 3♠ shows a diamond fit over which responder can show shortage and hopefully not bypass 3NT if it matters. If you are worried with a diamond fit that responder will bypass 3NT when it matters, just lie and show a club fit then later correct to diamonds.

over

3♥ asks for shortage. Responder never has to bypass 3NT, and opener can still next easily agree the minor on the 4 level.

?

I mean, why are you so concerned with opener saying what minor he likes at this point when responder is destined to give specific information about his hand anyway? What is the gain?

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on May 1 2009, 03:34 PM, said:

Come on. Are you seriously suggesting:

3♥ shows a club fit over which responder can show shortage without bypassing 3NT. 3♠ shows a diamond fit over which responder can show shortage and hopefully not bypass 3NT if it matters. If you are worried with a diamond fit that responder will bypass 3NT when it matters, just lie and show a club fit then later correct to diamonds.

over

3♥ asks for shortage. Responder never has to bypass 3NT, and opener can still next easily agree the minor on the 4 level.

?

I mean, why are you so concerned with opener saying what minor he likes at this point when responder is destined to give specific information about his hand anyway? What is the gain?

Dead serious.

As you can see, no loss when exploring 3NT.

So, what's the gain, you ask?

It depends on how you want to take advantage. I have my methods, but they might obscure the issue, because you often shudder about my methods. So, with fairly normal methods, one bid (maybe 4♥, maybe four of the agreed minor) will clearly be RKCB, whereas any other bids can now be a cuebid.

Or, exotic method possibilites:

1. If Opener can bid 4♣, this is RKCB for clubs, regardless of what minor is set. So, for instance, if Opener is looking at the K-Q in diamonds, which is the agreed minor, but wants to know how good Responder's clubs are, he bids 4♣ after agreeing diamonds.

2. Opener will always be able to bid 4♦ as RKCB for diamonds, again possibly after agreeing clubs as trumps because Opener may be looking at the K-Q in clubs.

3. 4♥ could be 6KCB, or a cue, or whatever. But, if 4♣ was not available, then 4♥ is RKCB for clubs.

I'm sure you can imagine many other possibilities.

[jdonn]

If the big gain is that you can agree one minor then bid keycard for the other, I am not buying what you are selling.

Anyway aren't you just wording it funny? You say 3♥ agrees clubs, partner shows shortness, then opener can change the suit to diamonds or stick with clubs. That is the exact same thing as a shortness ask that doesn't agree any suit.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on May 1 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

If the big gain is that you can agree one minor then bid keycard for the other, I am not buying what you are selling.

Anyway aren't you just wording it funny? You say 3♥ agrees clubs, partner shows shortness, then opener can change the suit to diamonds or stick with clubs. That is the exact same thing as a shortness ask that doesn't agree any suit.

No its not.

There are only two reasons to bid 3♥ when you really don't want to focus clubs. One is to be silly with the opponents, planning to bid 3NT no matter what partner does. So, you ignore that. The other is precise -- you want to play 3NT if partner has a stiff spade but not if partner has a stiff heart BUT you prefer diamonds.

So, if you bid 3♠, diamonds are always set as focus. Opener might pass a 3NT "answer," but diamonds is the focus.

If you bid 3♥, clubs is presumed to be the focus.

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder shows a stiff spade (bids 3NT), and Opener passes, then this is the contract, but the minor focus is now unknown, which is only troubling to the opponents.

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder shows a stiff heart (3♠), and Opener bids 3NT, then the club focus is inferentially confirmed. But, which of us cares, as the bidding is over?

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder bids 3NT to show a stiff spade, and Opener bids anything, then he did not have the trouble hand. Hence, the club focus is real. So, any call after a 3NT answer by Responder confirms clubs as trumps.

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder bids 3♠, and Opener bids 5♦, diamonds is focused, as the contract is to play. One might also reserve 4♦ to Opener, for the hand where Opener wants to play only 3NT opposite a stiff spade but is interested in a diamond slam opposite a stiff heart. In that later event. we are no worse off than the 3♥ shortness-ask folks who do not set trumps thereby.

But we gain on the vast majority of deals.

As to the general point, that you don't buy the benefit, I can't help you there. If you really don't see the benefit of having options, like asking bids in the known other suit when trump internals may already be known, or instead simple cuebidding as an alternative to RKCB when the hand is right, then you are either drunk right now or someone has stolen your password. The real Josh would know that it is obviously a benefit to be able to do something more but might counter with some sort of cost-benefit analysis.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on May 2 2009, 07:34 AM, said:

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder shows a stiff spade (bids 3NT), and Opener passes, then this is the contract, but the minor focus is now unknown, which is only troubling to the opponents.

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder shows a stiff heart (3♠), and Opener bids 3NT, then the club focus is inferentially confirmed.  But, which of us cares, as the bidding is over?

LOL wait wait wait. So it is troubling to the opponents if they can't tell which minor we prefer. But if they can tell then "which of us cares"? Contradict yourself much?

Quote

As to the general point, that you don't buy the benefit, I can't help you there.  If you really don't see the benefit of having options, like asking bids in the known other suit when trump internals may already be known, or instead simple cuebidding as an alternative to RKCB when the hand is right, then you are either drunk right now or someone has stolen your password.  The real Josh would know that it is obviously a benefit to be able to do something more but might counter with some sort of cost-benefit analysis.

You still just have a 3♥ shortness ask, only with a few hand types that prefer diamonds removed and with all the followups defined. If you think I must be drunk to not believe in your methods, then I refer you to one of your insanity threads.

[hanp]

kenrexford, on May 1 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

hanp, on May 1 2009, 11:42 AM, said:

Just bid 3H to ask for shortness.

I assume that 3♠ shows the obvious and 3NT shows heart shortness? Then, I assume Declarer can set trumps later if interested?

I would assume 3S shows short hearts and 3NT shows short spades but obviously this is just a matter of agreement.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on May 2 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

kenrexford, on May 2 2009, 07:34 AM, said:

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder shows a stiff spade (bids 3NT), and Opener passes, then this is the contract, but the minor focus is now unknown, which is only troubling to the opponents.

If Opener bids 3♥, and Responder shows a stiff heart (3♠), and Opener bids 3NT, then the club focus is inferentially confirmed.  But, which of us cares, as the bidding is over?

LOL wait wait wait. So it is troubling to the opponents if they can't tell which minor we prefer. But if they can tell then "which of us cares"? Contradict yourself much?

Quote

As to the general point, that you don't buy the benefit, I can't help you there.  If you really don't see the benefit of having options, like asking bids in the known other suit when trump internals may already be known, or instead simple cuebidding as an alternative to RKCB when the hand is right, then you are either drunk right now or someone has stolen your password.  The real Josh would know that it is obviously a benefit to be able to do something more but might counter with some sort of cost-benefit analysis.

You still just have a 3♥ shortness ask, only with a few hand types that prefer diamonds removed and with all the followups defined. If you think I must be drunk to not believe in your methods, then I refer you to one of your insanity threads.

Uou are either dense or are intensionally egging me on. I like either option, so I'll bite.

As to the "contradiction," the idea that "only the opponents could be troubled" and "neither of us cares" are rather consistent. You see, if we aren't "troubled," then we don't care. If we don't care, then we aren't troubled. It all works out nicely.

That said, the two comments concern different issues, and hence the nuance. In the former, the opponents might be troubled, but we won't be, as we are stopping right there. In the latter, the focus is on our concern that diamonds are focused, and the concern level is zero because we are playing notrump, except perhaps as a curiosity. A, "well, aint that a lick on the d!ck" kind of concern.

As to your insistence that 3♥ "is just a shortness ask." You are making no sense, as usual.

Let's try a thought process. You could ask for Responder's shortness for the L-O-T-D reason described above, which seems silly. But, presumably you ask for the shortness for a reason. That seems to be strain, or level.

If strain is the concern, meaning the suit or notrump, then 75% of the time you flag the correct minor, unless, again, you are being funny, which is perfectly fine.

If slam is the only focus, then you always flag the correct minor.

If notrump or slam is the focus, you focus the correct minor 75% of the time.

So, you focus the "wrong" minor only when 3NT is in consideration and only 25% of that time, which is let's say 15% of the time. Random number, but whatever.

Of that 15% of the time, sometimes partner has the right stiff for 3NT. So, maybe half the time, or 7.5% of the time, will you even have the need to correct the minor back.

In other words, an exception to a rule that affects perhaps 7.5% of the auctions, with little cost, hardly converts the approach from "flags with an exception" to "3♥ as a random asking bid but 3♠ as a rare exception clearly focusing diamonds."

Buyt, if you insist on viewing it your way, have fun with that.