[slothy]

Does this poll include asking whether one believes Intelligent Life exists in West Chicago?

[slothy]

I cant remember whose equation it was (i am sure someone will trigger my memory I think he was some white-ivory-towered prof from MIT quite high up in the echelons of SETI) but someone came up with an equation to find the probability of life, life per se not 'intelligent life', existing somewhere else in the Universe (our Universe, if not one of many )

What is quite uncanny is that

1) the number of variables, although not arbitrary, were selected from a harvest of many more based on what he, and his esteemed collegues, assumed were most important in sustaining and procreating 'life' in general (ie not in our immediate galactic environment and one that he was familiar with, but ANY???? );

2) these were 'mashed-up' using some 'proven algorithm' (this is a quote: how the hell can something so expansive be proven within the confines of some frilly-wallpapered badly-lit office on a z80 processor does beg another question)

3) the equations themselves were formulated and conceived within the confines and parameters of our own collective intelligence!! (ie OUR mathematics, at least the direction and momentum that human mathematcis has taken ( and arguably the pinnacle of human intelligence [besides the invention of checkback stayman, of course]) : another intelligent life may have something similar to mathematics but may have a means of defining the existence of intelligence elsewhere in the Universe differently (ie NOT through the conscious and meaningful juxtapostion of a finite set of symbols ie 'a number')....

I think this whole idea of contemplating or even trying to discover whether Intelligent Life exists anywhere else in the universe is a fatuous one. And let us say IF it did, we are presuming they would not be a hostile civilisation and see us a threat and exterminate us?? (now we are venturing into the realms of Star Trek...i am sure i played against a Vulcan-like personality just the other night)

To put it in perspective: The amount of money the defunct U.S.S.R. and U.S. spent on landing on the moon (what for??????? for a game of golf??) could be equated to 240 times more than the estimated investment lost in this recession. What remained could alleviate the collective debt of every developing country FOUR TIMES OVER.

ie. why not focus our own intelligence into making the world and life on a planet we KNOW exists into one which will maximise the collective standard of living and happiness of the people living on it, and for our ancestors, instead of fumbling around on some wild-goose chase trying to find out whether some green-coloured people with 4 eyes exist somewhere else?

The money that is being spent on the anticipated landing on Mars (does water exist on Mars - who fookin cares!! - and will we find unicellular organisms mulling over a cryptic crossword light from the Sunday newspaper?? (Sunday??? This is a noun used to describe time??? Other intelligence may perceive time differently or may not perceive or have any concept of time at all!!!! it is a dimension that we have evolved to experience and which shapes our lives!! Newspaper - words, language, images, communication (female breasts with specific allusion to the UK Sun Newspaper) ?? we assume that other intelligences would have something similar or even dare say it, communicate telepathically???) is mind-boggling and i am convinced, beyond any doubt that the most optimistic outcome of the journey cannot warrant what will be spent on it (its already spiralling out of control). There are much more pressing concerns within a 50,000 mile distance to overcome than any that may be discovered approximately 48 million miles away.

If an intelligent life existing 160 million light years (quite near apparently according to some) and were aware of our existence and had a powerful enough telescope to see us they would see dinosaurs roaming about an Earth totally unrecognisable from our own (assuming they not managed to harness something beyond the speed of light).

Even 3 million light years away they will see badly-shaved men throwing spears at mammoths!

I think to contemplate the probability of whether life exists somewhere else is to look a bit closer to home: we should think of the enormous serendipity of our planet and the conditions, at least 'geoically'. of the planet we live on. A few things to mull over:-

1) if the average orbital distance of our planet was 2% of its actual distance closer to our 'sun' it would be too hot for water to exist as a liquid: it would be a vapour. Life, as we know it would not exist. THe atmosphere would not be able to absorb the extra enthalpy.

2) if the average orbital distance of our planet was 2% of its actual distance farther away from our 'sun' it would be too cold for water to exist as a liquid: it would be a solid. Life, as we know it would not exist. THe atmosphere would not be able to compensate for the loss of enthalpy.

3) If our sun was in, human terms, 30 years old, when it was 28 years old the ravaging heat of its core would be way too hot .... if it were 32 it would be way to cold.ie it could not sustain any life that had managed to procreate itself in those conditions.

There are many more astounding facts to do with pressure, composition of our atmosphere and our core and our surface and our own evolution as well as that of our planet.

I dont give a ***** whether life exists on some rock 4 billion miles away. If it did, i couldnt see myself going to play a bridge tourney there (i might bvecome an Exterrestrial Life Master there, who knows?)

Anyway need a smoke and i am getting pissed off....

[Winstonm]

jdonn, on Apr 2 2009, 07:51 PM, said:

Lobowolf, on Apr 2 2009, 07:13 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 2 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

Intelligent life would certainly be wise enough to steer clear of our little clusterfuck of a planet, so the lack of alien contact should strongly imply intelligent life exists elsewhere.

Of course, Dick Cheney doesn't believe there is any valuable life outside the Executive branch of the U.S. government so aliens have torture and rendition to evoid even if they do land.

Your ability to work Bush and/or Cheney into just about anything is becoming a source of morbid fascination for me. The possibilities are limitless.

He is an expert at getting Obama in too.

Dick Cheney and Barrack Obama walk into a bar on Mars....with a blue dog....a singing blue dog.....a really intelligent singing blue dog....

[hrothgar]

slothy, on Apr 4 2009, 02:30 AM, said:

I cant remember whose equation it was (i am sure someone will trigger my memory I think he was some white-ivory-towered prof from MIT quite high up in the echelons of SETI) but someone came up with an equation to find the probability of life, life per se not 'intelligent life', existing somewhere else in the Universe (our Universe, if not one of many )

.

http://en.wikipedia..../Drake_equation

[pigpenz]

TimG, on Apr 2 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

So, if there is intelligent life out there somewhere, does it have access to salvation? That requires belief in Jesus Christ, right?

i always use to wonder when i was a little kid if Jesus had to make the rounds from galaxy to galaxy to repeatedly get crucified, sort of a Christian version of GroundHog Day

[dicklont]

Lobowolf, on Apr 2 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

Do you believe that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe?

Yes, but more importantly: do they play bridge?
Will there ever be an interstellar bridge championship?

I suppose the Borg can't compete, their basic abilities make them cheat the whole time.

[Aberlour10]

dicklont, on Apr 4 2009, 07:58 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Apr 2 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

Do you believe that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe?

Yes, but more importantly: do they play bridge?
Will there ever be an interstellar bridge championship?

I suppose the Borg can't compete, their basic abilities make them cheat the whole time.

To get the answer to these questions, we should engrave f. ex. Meckwells's CC in the Voyager Gold Record and send it with the next mission.

[Al_U_Card]

Aberlour10, on Apr 4 2009, 08:10 AM, said:

dicklont, on Apr 4 2009, 07:58 AM, said:

Lobowolf, on Apr 2 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

Do you believe that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe?

Yes, but more importantly: do they play bridge?
Will there ever be an interstellar bridge championship?

I suppose the Borg can't compete, their basic abilities make them cheat the whole time.

To get the answer to these questions, we should engrave f. ex. Meckwells's CC in the Voyager Gold Record and send it with the next mission.

Better not, those that found it would think that they had found the original tablets with the Commandments on them...

[Feegle]

Slothy makes some good points at the beginning of his 'essay' (on Drake's Equation). I found the following thoughts interesting:

"It is entirely possible that our backwater of a planet is literally the only one that has ever borne life. The point is that if there were only one planet that had ever borne life, then it would have to be our planet, for the very good reason that 'we' are here discussing the question! If the origin of life is such an improbable event that it only happened on one planet in the universe, then our planet has to be that planet. So, we cannot use the fact that Earth has life to conclude that life must be probable enough to have arisen on another planet. Such an argument would be circular." [Richard Dawkins].

He goes on to say that we have to have some independent arguments about how easy or difficult it is for life to originate on a planet before we can even begin to answer the question of how many other planets in the universe have life.

[pigpenz]

Feegle, on Apr 4 2009, 11:54 AM, said:

He goes on to say that we have to have some independent arguments about how easy or difficult it is for life to originate on a planet before we can even begin to answer the question of how many other planets in the universe have life.

i would think it would be a matter of odds

[kenberg]

I see it as more or less impossible to have a serious discussion of whether there is life elsewhere. The posed question was what I believe, not what I think I could defend in a scientific marketplace. Some form of life somewhere seems likely, more or less on the argument that the existence of life somewhere establishes the possibility, and it's a big universe. Any sort of scientific estimate of probabilities seems totally out of reach to me. I wouldn't expect humanoid life, too specialized, but some sort of intelligence seems possible and maybe likely. My dog is definitely intelligent, I think robins are intelligent, perhaps worms are intelligent, it all gets a bit into semantics.

I probably would not have responded at all since I think the question is simply "what do you believe?" and I am free to believe what I choose, but Lobo compared it to the Q about Noah's Ark. That got my attention. In some ways I think I approach these things similarly. Flood? Sure, we have lots of floods. Some sort of Ark used as a rescue plan? Could be. I wouldn't assume a heavenly weather forecast but maybe the rains are getting heavy and frequent. Got to be prepared. Lots of people built fallout shelters. Animals two by two? Not really. I see that as sort of like asking for humanoid life. Too specialized and demanding to expect it to happen even if you could settle on what all species have to be included. Two mosquitoes? Maybe the answer is in Genesis. I don't care.

In neither case do I regard the answer as helping me to guess the location of the queen of trump or other critical issues. My mind is full of beliefs that don't really much matter.

[Gerben42]

Quote

. The posed question was what I believe, not what I think I could defend in a scientific marketplace. Some form of life somewhere seems likely, more or less on the argument that the existence of life somewhere establishes the possibility, and it's a big universe. Any sort of scientific estimate of probabilities seems totally out of reach to me.

I may be an outlier here, but I believe things because they are scientifically plausible to me. The statistical argument in favour of extraterrestrial life is the only reason for my opinion that it's likely that there are others, but that they are far away.

Sadly enough, this also means that we will not find a way to bypass the speed of light. After all, there will be species that are millions of years ahead of us and they haven't made it to our place. So we won't make it to theirs either...