[TimG]

So, if there is intelligent life out there somewhere, does it have access to salvation? That requires belief in Jesus Christ, right?

[mtvesuvius]

TimG, on Apr 2 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 2 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

(with god knows how many more capable of supporting life as we don't know it.)

God?

Luckily it's only a figure of speech

[jdonn]

TimG, on Apr 2 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 2 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

(with god knows how many more capable of supporting life as we don't know it.)

God?

No, god knows. A belief in god is not implied.

[jdonn]

mtvesuvius, on Apr 2 2009, 02:45 PM, said:

TimG, on Apr 2 2009, 02:42 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 2 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

(with god knows how many more capable of supporting life as we don't know it.)

God?

Luckily it's only a figure of speech

I wouldn't worry about it. While often having interesting points to make, I think it's been months at least since Tim made a post about the topic at hand, rather than some nitpicky distraction about something minor.

[TimG]

jdonn, on Apr 2 2009, 02:50 PM, said:

I think it's been months at least since Tim made a post about the topic at hand, rather than some nitpicky distraction about something minor.

Point taken.

[barmar]

Lobowolf, on Apr 2 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

I find the results of this thread to be interesting in conjunction with the Noah's Ark thread, with respect to the burden of proof being on the side ascribing to an affirmative belief and the posts focused on holding to beliefs unsupported by evidence.

Is the support for the belief generally, "Well, it's a REALLY big place that's been around a REALLY long time, so it seems like there should be," or something else? If the former, does that constitute evidence?

Although the poll is worded as if it's about absolute knowledge, I think most of the respondents interpreted it as "do you think it's LIKELY that there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe". A question like that doesn't demand scientific proof. Only a believer in UFOs being alien invaders could truthfully answer the poll question literally.

Thus, the question is analogous to asking a scientist "Do you believe someone will win $50 million in the lottery?" He obviously can't answer it either way with certainty, but he can state whether he thinks it's likely (e.g. "unlikely next week, but very probable within a year").

And the same logic goes for intelligent life. My feeling is that if it can happen once, it's not impossible. And even if it's a 1-in-a-million chance, there are probably hundreds of millions of opportunities spread out through the universe. Thus, it would be really surprising if we were unique.

[Winstonm]

Intelligent life would certainly be wise enough to steer clear of our little clusterfuck of a planet, so the lack of alien contact should strongly imply intelligent life exists elsewhere.

Of course, Dick Cheney doesn't believe there is any valuable life outside the Executive branch of the U.S. government so aliens have torture and rendition to avoid even if they do land.

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Apr 2 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

Intelligent life would certainly be wise enough to steer clear of our little clusterfuck of a planet, so the lack of alien contact should strongly imply intelligent life exists elsewhere.

Of course, Dick Cheney doesn't believe there is any valuable life outside the Executive branch of the U.S. government so aliens have torture and rendition to evoid even if they do land.

Your ability to work Bush and/or Cheney into just about anything is becoming a source of morbid fascination for me. The possibilities are limitless.

A grasshopper walks into a bar. The bartender says, "You know, we have a drink named after you." The grasshopper looks down from a newscast of Dick Cheney lying about Iran's nuclear weapons program and says, "No *****? There's a drink called Steve?"

[jdonn]

Lobowolf, on Apr 2 2009, 07:13 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Apr 2 2009, 05:16 PM, said:

Intelligent life would certainly be wise enough to steer clear of our little clusterfuck of a planet, so the lack of alien contact should strongly imply intelligent life exists elsewhere.

Of course, Dick Cheney doesn't believe there is any valuable life outside the Executive branch of the U.S. government so aliens have torture and rendition to evoid even if they do land.

Your ability to work Bush and/or Cheney into just about anything is becoming a source of morbid fascination for me. The possibilities are limitless.

He is an expert at getting Obama in too.

[Gerardo]

mtvesuvius, on Apr 2 2009, 11:31 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 2 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

It would make for a better poll to ask if there is intelligent life on earth.

Obviously not! Well, maybe dolphins, but...

And above all, lab rats, obviously

[Gerben42]

Quote

I find the results of this thread to be interesting in conjunction with the Noah's Ark thread, with respect to the burden of proof being on the side ascribing to an affirmative belief and the posts focused on holding to beliefs unsupported by evidence.

Is the support for the belief generally, "Well, it's a REALLY big place that's been around a REALLY long time, so it seems like there should be," or something else? If the former, does that constitute evidence?

Defenitely the explanation is "Well, it's a REALLY big place that's been around a REALLY long time, so it seems like there should be". Since there are about 10...<lots of zeroes>...000 planets, and we see that once you have life it sticks around even after quite large catastrophes, the chance that there is no life anywhere else should be negligible.

The chance that the number of planets in this huge universe that have intelligent life is exactly one should also be very small. Either it's zero because the concept is impossible, or it's "a lot" because the universe is so big.

[shintaro]

jdonn, on Apr 2 2009, 09:26 AM, said:

It would make for a better poll to ask if there is intelligent life on earth.

agree with this quote



However I would never ever have the audacity some of our voters have by saying they DO NOT believe there is intelligent life eleswhere

But then I suppose they are 'Bridge Players' afterall

[helene_t]

Gerben42, on Apr 3 2009, 07:53 AM, said:

we see that once you have life it sticks around even after quite large catastrophes, the chance that there is no life anywhere else should be negligible.

I think this reasoning is wrong (or at least incomplete).

Suppose there are one quadrillion planets in the universe that has harbored life and on each the ecosystem had a probability of 1/quadrillion of surviving all the disasters they are exposed to until they evolve into the stage where contract bridge and internet gossip is invented. Say the number of planets whose ecosystem actually survived is one. Then we are bound to live on the one surviving one. The probability of that is not 1/quadrillion. It is 1.

[Al_U_Card]

And one can only hope (or have faith in a merciful God) that in all the multiverses in this infinite reality, there is only one BBF, not so that we would be unique and special, just to limit the damage...

[kenberg]

Lobowolf, on Apr 2 2009, 12:57 PM, said:

I find the results of this thread to be interesting in conjunction with the Noah's Ark thread, with respect to the burden of proof being on the side ascribing to an affirmative belief and the posts focused on holding to beliefs unsupported by evidence.

Is the support for the belief generally, "Well, it's a REALLY big place that's been around a REALLY long time, so it seems like there should be," or something else? If the former, does that constitute evidence?

I stayed out of the Noah's Ark discussion but I don't think Noah had two of every species on board. The story probably does refer to a real flood, perhaps there was a real Ark, perhaps there were some animals on board. So if I get to vary the story a bit I might find the general idea plausible I imagine civilization woould have survived anyway, which is, i think, a big change from the intended message.

With intelligent life elsewhere, I can imagine disputes over what constitutes both life and intelligence, but I don't find it hard to believe that somewhere in the universe there is something that can reasonably described as life exhibiting some sort of behavior that could reasonably described as intelligent.

The biggest difference in the two situations that I see is this: My former minister would have insisted that I absolutely must believe in the Noah story otherwise my soul is damned. I don't think anyone claims such consequences for my soul based on my views of extra-terrestrial intelligent life.

[mikeh]

I don't 'believe' either way.. that there is or is not intelligent life elsewhere.

I believe it to be highly probable, but in the absence of more evidence than we currently have, I don't go further than that.

I hope there is intelligent life, I suspect that hope is well-founded and would be delighted (I hope...) if the evidence arrived.

Is there 'life' elsewhere? I think there is enough evidence for us to say that the odds are overwhelming that self-replicating organisms of some kind almost certainly exist, almost certainly in staggering numbers, on an absolute basis.

The frequency with which such organisms respond to evolutionary pressures to evolve what we call intelligence is another matter, in respect of which the evidence is far more limited.... depending on one's definition of intelligence.

Further, I suspect that for most of us we equate intelligence with consciousness. One of the best novels I have read in recent years is Blind Sight, by Watts... it is cience fiction, and the book has a number of themes but the main one arises from 'First Contact', with a life form that is highly intelligent but utterly lacking in consciousness. Chilling. His thesis appears to be that consciousness can be a handicap.

[hanp]

I would have voted "don't know" as well. Really strange to me if people think they know the answer to this question.

[Al_U_Card]

hanp, on Apr 3 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

I would have voted "don't know" as well. Really strange to me if people think they know the answer to this question.

Would it be better to have asked:

Do you believe that there is more intelligent life than ours elsewhere in the universe?

[hanp]

Not particularly, in my opinion.

I've heard Gerben's argument a lot of times and I don't find it very convincing. There are just too many things involved that we do not understand. I think. But Gerben knows much more about it than I do so maybe I just don't get it.

[mikeh]

helene_t, on Apr 3 2009, 05:26 AM, said:

Gerben42, on Apr 3 2009, 07:53 AM, said:

we see that once you have life it sticks around even after quite large catastrophes, the chance that there is no life anywhere else should be negligible.

I think this reasoning is wrong (or at least incomplete).

Suppose there are one quadrillion planets in the universe that has harbored life and on each the ecosystem had a probability of 1/quadrillion of surviving all the disasters they are exposed to until they evolve into the stage where contract bridge and internet gossip is invented. Say the number of planets whose ecosystem actually survived is one. Then we are bound to live on the one surviving one. The probability of that is not 1/quadrillion. It is 1.

This is of course a variant of the larger arguments that arise from the fact that the fundamental relationships between various physical forces is such that this universe, and we, exist. Change any of the fundamental ratios or masses, and we have an entirely different universe, probably incapable of forming matter, let alone life. if there are a quadrillion universes with different initial constraints and only one of them permits life as we know it, and we are here... then the odds are 100% that we live in that universe.

OTOH, it appears that the constraints underlying our universe are such that most of whatever was around at the Big Bang ended up as stuff that is incapable of forming matter anyway (or at least didn't end up as matter that is capable of forming planets, bacteria and bridge players/philosophers), so maybe there is a universe somewhere most of the universe became usable in that sense.... the tournaments would be much larger than we have

Sorry, I know this is off-topic