[HeavyDluxe]

Scoring: IMP

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Where does your auction get you?

[TylerE]

Ok, first I'll give my auction using my system of choice. I fully acknowledge that this is way beyond most B/I players, just want to give a taste of science.

1♣ (16+, Forcing) - 1NT (GF with 5+ ♣)
2♣ (Suit quality ask, usually shows a fit) - 3♣ (6+ ♣, 2 of AKQ)
3♥ (Ask in Hearts) - 4♣ (2nd Round control)
4♦ (Ask in Spades) - 4♠ (3rd Round control...must be XX since opener holds Q)
4NT (Re ask in Hearts) - 4♦ (Kx(xx))
7NT (6+3+3+1 = 13)

Playing standard systems...

2♣ - 3♣
3♠ - 4♣
4NT (1430) - 5♣
5♦ (Queen?) - 5♥ (Yes + K♥)
7N

[awm]

I'd try:

2♣ - 3♣
3NT(1) - 4♣(2)
4♦ - 4♥
4♠ - 4NT(3)
5♣(4) - 5NT(5)
7♣(6) - 7NT(7)

(1) I don't really like 3♠ here as it will often create a problem for partner who is unlikely to hold many red suit stoppers. 3NT is sure to make, and this hand is not that different from 22-24 balanced.

(2) Sets clubs as trump. Holding ten points and a seven-card suit north has essentially a slam force over a 2♣ opening (provided we're not off an AK).

(3) After three cuebids, north knows we don't have two quick losers. He bids keycard.

(4) One or four; obviously four in this case.

(5) Guarantees all keycards and asks for kings and/or extras.

(6) South has many running tricks, maximum values, and no jacks. In fact he can count thirteen tricks if north's 4♥ cue was the king (at least six clubs, one spade, three hearts, three diams).

(7) Might as well convert this, no reason to think partner can ruff anything.

[Fluffy]

my first try landed me on 5♣ with north amking a faith free bid to 6 probably. I won't reproduce because I feel embarrased.

[mtvesuvius]

TylerE, on Jan 9 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

Ok, first I'll give my auction using my system of choice. I fully acknowledge that this is way beyond most B/I players, just want to give a taste of science.

1♣ (16+, Forcing) - 1NT (GF with 5+ ♣)
2♣ (Suit quality ask, usually shows a fit) - 3♣ (6+ ♣, 2 of AKQ)
3♥ (Ask in Hearts) - 4♣ (2nd Round control)
4♦ (Ask in Spades) - 4♠ (3rd Round control...must be XX since opener holds Q)
4NT (Re ask in Hearts) - 4♦ (Kx(xx))
7NT (6+3+3+1 = 13)

Playing standard systems...

2♣ - 3♣
3♠ - 4♣
4NT (1430) - 5♣
5♦ (Queen?) - 5♥ (Yes + K♥)
7N

I like it... Precision is a much better system on hands like this, but Std. Systems can get you there too... I probably would reproduce both of your auctions, Tyler.

[mikeh]

2♣  3♣
3N  4♣
4♦  4♥
4♠  6♣
7♣  7N

I agree with Adam that 3Nis the best call over 3♣... 3♠ endplays partner in far too many auctions

4♣: extra values, extra clubs, slam move

3 cue bids follow

I don't like using 4N over 4♠ as keycard (Frances, where are you? You and I are in a small minority here ). To me, 4N would show a hand with nothing left that I can afford to cue, but too much to 'sign-off' in 5♣. As it is, the North hand has nothing left to cue, but too much not to commit to slam

Now the spotlight turns to S. He has seen that partner has only the one side King..partner would have cued below 6♣ or would have at least bid 6N. So partner, who has already shown slam interest with long clubs, and who could therefore have bid 4N (forward going) must have extra club length/strength.

Given that inference, and given this hand, I think S can raise.. he raises to 7♣ because there are more tools available to declarer in a trump contract.

But N can more or less count tricks, once assured of an extra value 2♣ opening, and can deduce that playing in clubs won't afford much of an edge.

He sees 7 clubs, utilizing only partner's K.. and 2 hearts, utilizing only partner's A... and opener has to have both pointed Aces to bid grand.. so that is 11 tricks, using only 15 of partner's known 23+ hcp (it is unlikely that partner would bid grand with a minimum)... he needs only 2 more winners... it may not be a mathematical certainty.. but, if not, it's the next thing to it.

[Echognome]

The only thing I'm not sure about on these auctions is the conversion to 7NT. It seems right, however, it also seems to be possible that there may be slightly more chances in clubs if you have to ruff one of opener's suits for the 13th trick. I was trying to come up with an example hand, but it was difficult. Maybe:

AQx
AJx
AKxxx
Kx

Obviously our chances are good in 7NT, but in 7♣, we can ruff diamonds twice as well. I don't know. 7NT is likely laydown opposite almost any hand.

[y66]

Why do some Souths cue bid 4S after 4H instead of taking over with 4N? Is it because they don't know enough about North's clubs to place the contract?

[mikeh]

y66, on Jan 9 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

Why do some Souths cue bid 4S after 4H instead of taking over with 4N? Is it because they don't know enough about North's clubs to place the contract?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I cue bid because, in my experience, auctions such as these work at least as well (I was going to say: better) with cue bids than with keycard. Ask yourself this: is South in a strong position to know what to do over a keycard response: would North bid the same way with Jx Kxx xx AQ109xx?

This is a slam going hand over the 3N rebid, and might easily play better in clubs than in notrump.. and responder will evaluate on the (erroneous) assumption that partner holds at least 2 clubs.. as indeed, he almost always would on this auction.

No sane player would want to be in grand opposite this hand... and absolutely not in notrump.. heck in notrump you need him to hold the 9 in order to be confident of winning even 5 club tricks.. you have to overtake the K to drive out the J since we have only 1 entry.

Bear in mind that opener is not going to be able to bid 4n then 5N to show all the keycards.. because he knows that he has to make a Q ask...

[Mbodell]

My system of choice:

1♣* - 2♦*; forcing artificial 16+ - 8+ points, 2+ controls, 5+ clubs
2♥* - 2♠*; relay - short spades
2nt* - 3♣*; relay - actually 2227 shape
3♦* - 3♠*; relay - 3 controls (3 K or A+K)
4♠* - 5♣*; relay - 1 of the K or Q of ♣, either 0 or 2 of K or Q of ♠
5♦* - 5♠*; relay - 1 of the K or Q of ♥, either 0 or 2 of K or Q of ♦
5nt* - 6♦*; relay - J of ♣, not the J of ♠
7nt (this makes as long as partner has T of ♣ or ♣ aren't 5-0).

Standard:

2♣ - 3♣
3♠ - 4♣
4nt - 5♣
5♦ - 5♥
6nt?

I'm not sure if I'm confident enough to bid 7 as partner might have just AQxxxx of clubs. I have everything stopped twice though so 6nt seems safe.

[mcphee]

2C 3C
3N 4C
4D 4H
4S 4N
5C/D* 7N *RKC response 1430 or 0314

I prefer 4N here to be key card. The hand asking knows where it is going when in hears how many key cards our side holds. They are the hand who is best placed to set the final strain. The strong hand can not be sure the H cue bid is the K or a short suit.

[y66]

mikeh, on Jan 9 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

y66, on Jan 9 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

Why do some Souths cue bid 4S after 4H instead of taking over with 4N? Is it because they don't know enough about North's clubs to place the contract?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I cue bid because, in my experience, auctions such as these work at least as well (I was going to say: better) with cue bids than with keycard. Ask yourself this: is South in a strong position to know what to do over a keycard response: would North bid the same way with Jx Kxx xx AQ109xx?

This is a slam going hand over the 3N rebid, and might easily play better in clubs than in notrump.. and responder will evaluate on the (erroneous) assumption that partner holds at least 2 clubs.. as indeed, he almost always would on this auction.

No sane player would want to be in grand opposite this hand... and absolutely not in notrump.. heck in notrump you need him to hold the 9 in order to be confident of winning even 5 club tricks.. you have to overtake the K to drive out the J since we have only 1 entry.

Bear in mind that opener is not going to be able to bid 4n then 5N to show all the keycards.. because he knows that he has to make a Q ask...

Got it. Thanks.

[neilkaz]

I like Adam's well explained auction a lot !

[vuroth]

I think I would find 3NT tough to find at the table. Partner has to have the A♣, as well as either the Q♣ or a major suit king for his bid. Thinking about it a bit more, partner should probably have at least a jack more, and a major suit jack is certainly a big help.

That said, 3NT doesn't seem quite cold. Certainly, if parnter has something like

xxx
xxx
Jx
AQxxx

their hand isn't too much help for me at all in 3NT.

I would be so much more comfortable bidding 3NT with Kx in clubs.

Granted, a lot of hands partner could hold will help a lot, but I've spent more time picturing likely hands for partner than I would have at the table. At the table, my knee-jerk reaction to the option of bidding 3NT would have been fear of blocking clubs/lack of entries to dummy.

[awm]

vuroth, on Jan 11 2009, 07:59 AM, said:

If partner has something like

xxx
xxx
Jx
AQxxx

their hand isn't too much help for me at all in 3NT.

You have something like 30 combined high card points (your 24 plus partner's 6). It is hard to believe that you can't make 3NT. On the given hand, you can just play spades out of hand to establish the suit. Three spades + one heart + three diamonds + two clubs is nine tricks.

Of course, spades could break really badly, but then you are hardly doing better in 4♠!

The problem is that there are a lot of hands after 2♣-3♣-3♠ where it is really not clear what partner should do. Raising on a small doubleton is a definite possibility, especially in preference to bidding 3NT with nothing in either unbid suit.

[Benoit35]

Here's the "lol" auction - probably not the way you want to do it, but it works:

2♣ - 3♣
3NT - 4NT
5♠ - 5NT
6♥ - 7NT

Using regular Blackwood (or Gerber), North sees one missing King so the grand is 75% + the odds of being able to finesse the ♣K.