[jillybean]

V vs N

pass pass to you;

♠x
♥Axx
♦x
♣AK 8th

What do you open? Some number of ♣'s, 3nt, something else?

[han]

Three options come to mind, 1C, 3NT and 5C. 1C keeps our options open and might be what I would open in fourth seat but not in third. 3NT might make but it is a gamble and could be a disaster. 5C needs different cards to make, I think it is a little bit more likely to make and it has the added advantage that it makes it impossible for LHO to bid 4S. I'll go with 5C.

Curious what others will think.

[cherdano]

I would only consider 5♣ or 1♣. I wouldn't worry much about 3N when my suit isn't solid yet and I have two singletons. My pick is 5♣.

[Codo]

I open 5m much less then these young guns, but this hand is right for 5 ♣.
I would expect to make it often enough + the extra chance that they make it wrong.

[dicklont]

5♣
Because I don´t expect that the bidding is over yet.
The opps can still have a slam, so I take a lot of bidding room and make them guess.

[awm]

Anyone else notice we are vulnerable vs. not?

Quite often the result of bidding 5♣ will be 5♣X going for 500 or 800. You sort of endplay LHO into doubling you a lot of times since you took away all of his space. With two aces in hand there is no particular reason to think opponents have slam (or even game, necessarily).

I'll bid 1♣ at these colors. At NV 5♣ seems fine.

[brianshark]

Agree with 1♣. 5♣ is pre-empting yourself just as much as you are pre-empting your opponents and anything in between just doesn't express the strength of your hand.

[han]

For the record, I noticed the vulnerability. I think 5C will make fairly often, I'm not worried about playing 5C doubled.

[maggieb]

1♣, it is, in my opinion, a 100% necessity to keep 3NT open as an option.

[jillybean]

Ok, I opened 1♣ the auction was;

P (P) 1♣ (1♥)
1♠ (P) ?

What now?

[jdonn]

I would open 5♣. The odds we belong in 3NT plus the odds we will be able to find this out accurately seem low enough to me to make 1♣ a worse choice (after all I can't describe this hand after 1♣ most of the time anyway.) This also benefits either when it's the opponents' hand, or when it's not their hand but they make the mistake of bidding anyway. I really don't think the fear of going for a big penalty is a very good reason to not open 5♣ on this hand, it would require partner having a useless hand for offense as well as perhaps clubs breaking badly, which is too pessimistic to worry about.

After your start Jilly I guess I would bid 2♥ since I think it's worth forcing to game but I'm not willing to simply bid 3NT now.

[Tcyk]

Since I usually play a strong club system, I would open 2C. Otherwise, I would open 1C. I never preempt with an opening hand even in third position. As mentioned earlier, it doesn't take much for this hand to make 3NT. If the opponents get into the auction, as they well might, my suit is certainly good enough to rebid.

I often see people open 4H or 4S with an opening hand. Every time I see it happen, I hope they miss a slam. I can understand the bid in third seat but it still doesn't feel right to me. Perhaps one is all it can make.

[han]

I think it is very difficult to have a sensible enough auction after 1C to find 3NT. We'll need to figure out if partner has spade and diamond stoppers, and after the heart overcall we'll want partner to have a doubleton club as well, how on earth can we figure this out?

Awm writes that quite often 5C will go for 500 or 800. 800? That means we'll have to lose that and diamond trick, plus two hearts and a club as well. Not very likely.

[maggieb]

han, on Dec 20 2008, 12:08 PM, said:

I think it is very difficult to have a sensible enough auction after 1C to find 3NT.

Why? After a start like the actual auction, we are headed towards 3N instead of 5♣. Maybe we don't need a diamond stopper, I am satisfied to play 3N as long as my RHO is on lead. A similar auction where it is obvious we would rather take a shot at 3N is if partner bids 1N over a 1♠ overcall. If we have a club loser, I think we are unlikely to make 5♣ anyway, though it is true that 3N will probably result in more undertricks. However, if both are going down, 5♣ is much more likely to be doubled, so maybe the undertrick concern is close to a wash.

I agree with you, though, that fears of going for 500 or 800 are irrational and are only a small part of why 1♣ is better than 5♣. Going minus here is only a very secondary concern compared to getting to the right game.

[jillybean]

heres the full hand

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     Pass  Pass  1♣
 1♥    1♠    Pass  3♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

[maggieb]

jillybean2, on Dec 20 2008, 12:26 PM, said:

heres the full hand

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     Pass  Pass  1♣
 1♥    1♠    Pass  3♣
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

3♣ was not a good bid (agree with josh's 2♥ to set up a game force), but I would have bid 3♥ with the north hand.

[han]

The actual hand makes a good case for opening 1C because 3NT is clearly where you want to be. I agree with forcing to game after the actual start.

I'm starting to think that maggieb is right in that 3NT is going to be the best game too often for a 5C opening.

[HeavyDluxe]

Late to the party, so I don't mean to sound like a yea-sayer.

I'd open 1♣, mainly because I'm chicken to preempt this hand with 5♣.

[Codo]

1. How can you bid 2 ♥? Isn't this showing a spade fit regulary?

2. Lets say that 2 ♥ is just a game force.
Partner shows his good hand for his bidding so far with 3 Spade and you bid 3 NT and hope to make it? In this case a ssimple 3 NT bid had been as good as

3. So hopefully you have the agrrement I have, 2 Heart denies a spade fit. In this case, this works fine. Pd bids 2 or 3 Spade and you 3 NT. He should figure out that this is the place to be with his diamond values.

[jillybean]

Sorry, I still dont know how to bid this after opening 1♣. Unless you have a special agreement, 2♥ is a ♠ fit.

edit.. comma added
2♥ IS a ♠ fit , UNLESS you have a special agreement