[sceptic]

feel free to discuss why you feel that you may not have gotten value for money from professional people (editted, in case I offend anyone else)

[Apollo81]

deleted

[mikeh]

sceptic, on Jun 9 2008, 12:35 PM, said:

feel free to discuss why you think you are ripped of from professional people

Maybe I am overly sensitive, and maybe this was supposed to be funny.. if so, I confess I don't get the joke.

As a professional... as a member of a self-governing profession with a strict Code of Ethics, a detailed Conduct Manual, severe discipline provisions actually enforced, and with a need for a minimum of 6 years post-secondary education (most have 7, I have 8 years of university) and a further year of apprenticeship, known as articling, I take my responsibilities seriously. I can also say, after more than 30 years as a lawyer, that the number of 'rip-offs' I have witnessed have been miniscule.

I am married to a realtor, and can say with confidence that the vast majority of realtors are hard-working people who genuinely care about their clients.

We will always encounter unscrupulous people in every walk of life. There are doctors who murder their patients, or commit sexual assault. There are police officers who plant evidence or accept bribes. There are priests and boy scout leaders who molest children. There are bridge pros who cheat. There are accountants who embezzle, lawyers who participate in fraud, car salesmen who lie about the history of the used car they are selling, and so on.

But most people who pursue lawful vocations are fundamentally honest, decent people. I know and am friends with people in most of the occupations listed.. other than window salesmen and drug dealers. Maybe if Sceptic had such a wide range of friends he might be a little more careful about who he insults.

To make up a list that includes several lawful occupations and 'drug dealers' is insulting.

[pclayton]

I echo Mike's views. I have used many attorneys over the years, and all of them had the utmost ethics. But that isn't what Wayne is asking.

Many of the attorneys I've used have had a 'heavy pencil', especially those at the associate level at big firms. With the desire to make partner, and the pressure for billable hours, its not uncommon for an associate to pad their billings. This isn't a slight on the legal profession at all, but its something I always watch for when reviewing a bill. Whenever I bring this up with the partner in charge, they are very open minded and will usually grant an adjustment.

Realtors? These folks are generally straight-shooters too, but I've witnessed first hand fiduciary violations from listing agents, "The property is $400,000, but offer $380 and I'm sure they'll take it". But its a tough living and I respect this profession.

Drug Dealers? Can't comment.

Glazing salesman? I'll lump these into contractors. When times are good, you better bid out the job, and you better watch the exclusions in the contract. When times are bad and work is few and far-between, these can be some of the most caring and hard working people you will ever meet.

Financial? I wouldn't trust a stock broker to make any kind of recommendation for a stock, or for planning. If my assets were large enough, I would definitely consult with an estate planner and CPA for some good advice.

Athletes? Whatever. They get what the market will bear and I have no beef with it.

Car salesman? With the exception of internet car buying, the process hasn't changed that much. Unless you really know what you are doing, and have the patience to be a grinder, they like to play a shell game between trade-in price, financing and price.

Lifestyle Gurus? Don't know that much, but I think this kind of advice is more beneficial than popping pills. On the other hand, just develop some good friends.

Other? For dubious 'value' (not just individuals, but 'things'), I would add in life insurance agents, high-end furniture and clothing stores, high-end restaurants, most wines over $25/bottle, travel agents, and pharmaceutical companies (including vitamin and herbal vendors). I'm sure there are others.

[sceptic]

Quote

Maybe if Sceptic had such a wide range of friends he might be a little more careful about who he insults.

"I did not realise this poll could be taken as an insult "

To make up a list that includes several lawful occupations and 'drug dealers' is insulting.

I happen to know some very nice drug dealers, who would be mortified to be in the same poll as a lawyer, but I am sure they would see the intended humour in my poll

and I am sure I asked value for money, I never questioned anyones ethics......... I feel your mild rant, somewhat odd, may be I have asked a question you are uncomfortable with, if so, I won't be losing much sleep tonight.

[mikeh]

sceptic, on Jun 9 2008, 02:01 PM, said:

Quote

Maybe if Sceptic had such a wide range of friends he might be a little more careful about who he insults.

"I did not realise this poll could be taken as an insult "

To make up a list that includes several lawful occupations and 'drug dealers' is insulting.

I happen to know some very nice drug dealers, who would be mortified to be in the same poll as a lawyer, but I am sure they would see the intended humour in my poll

and I am sure I asked value for money, I never questioned anyones ethics.........

Quote

I feel your mild rant, somewhat odd, may be I have asked a question you are uncomfortable with, if so, I won't be losing much sleep tonight.

Now you are becoming personally insulting.

But I won't lose any sleep over your insults

[sceptic]

I am sorry, I really do not understand how you can take offence at my poll and yes my remark was flippant, but not particularly nasty or insulting.......

[Apollo81]

I think the OP was trying to say "out of these, which profession has the biggest disparity between typical income earned and income you feel they should earn?" or "who's the most overpaid"

I didn't read anything into the OP having to do with ethics.

[Apollo81]

Lawyers make a lot of money but I don't think they're overpaid. The lawyers my age I know all work whenever they're not eating or sleeping and have huge law school debt, so they should make a lot.

Athletes get paid a lot, but they're a good value for my money since I can watch them for free on TV. Also being a pro athlete basically takes 10-20 years hardcore practice growing up, so they put their time in.

Most of the others fall into "I don't know enough about what they're paid or what they do"

[sceptic]

Apollo81, on Jun 9 2008, 07:40 PM, said:

editing

Hi Noble, thx for trying to fathom out what my poll is about, I have no interest in insulting anyone, I asked a simple question (ok, maybe drug dealers are not value for money, scum of the earth, if you want my humble opinion) (and yes, I have more experience of these b*****s than I would like, probably for reasons that you would not guess, nor am I ever likely to disclose to anyone but a friend)

The biggest disparity between typical income earned does not come into it, I asked a simple question "Value for money" this has no bearing on effort, it is what you get back from what you pay out

[matmat]

another totally idiotic poll from someone with too much time on their hands

[helene_t]

Weird comments. Say a person of proffesion X sends me a GBP 1000 bill after having provided a service I wouldn't have agreed to pay more than GBP 20 for if I had known how lousy the service would be. Then I would vote for profession X in this poll. This has nothing to do with bad ethics of X-professionals. It may reflect on my failure to assess whether I really need that kind of service, or it may reflect of my failure to asses how costly it will be to provide that service, or it may reflect on supply vs demand, or on some silly price regulation mechanism.

FWIW I would say hairdressers, restaurants and dentist provide good value for money. I have had some bad experiences with lawyers but much more good experiences, and I suppose it's in the nature of their profession that they will sometimes have to charge for a service that turned out to be useless, while a hairdresser's clients can better predict what the service will be worth.

[sceptic]

matmat, on Jun 9 2008, 07:55 PM, said:

another totally idiotic poll from someone with too much time on their hands

Thanks mat, I appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule to make such a pleasant comment

[blackshoe]

I suspect that criminals of many types will give least value for money, because that is the nature of the criminal enterprise - to artificially inflate the value of what they provide. I wouldn't call criminals "professionals", though. Nor salesmen, "lifestyle gurus" or suchlike.

[Al_U_Card]

Can you say "conflict of interest"? Once you place a human in temptation's path.....it is a slippery slope that most cannot resist.

Those with morals and ethics (even if obliged by a professional order (as myself)) are constantly fighting against the trend to the dilution of integrity and the pervasiveness of inequity for personal gain.

[bid_em_up]

I'm surprised "Bridge Pro/Teacher" didnt make the list.

[helene_t]

I wonder why medical statisticians are not on the list. Do you realize how we spend your tax money?

[luke warm]

i'd think drug dealers, being governed as they are by supply and demand, would give good (decent) value for the money charged...

[Winstonm]

Writers of poll questions should top the list.