[helene_t]

well 3♠ must show 15-17 points or such with 4414/4405. I don't understand why 4♣/♦/♥ does not require refining. Suppose it continues
- 4♣
4♦-4♥*

Now as opener I would like to now if 4♥ is passable or whether it is a cue for clubs (or spades).

[Codo]

There is a gimmick to solve this problem:

After 1 ♣ 1 ♦ 1 ♥ 1 ♠
3 ♥ is a bid you do not need for any other purpose. So you can play this as strong, 4 Spades and forcing.

[barryallen]

helene_t, on Jun 3 2008, 07:11 AM, said:

well 3♠ must show 15-17 points or such with 4414/4405. I don't understand why 4♣/♦/♥ does not require refining. Suppose it continues
- 4♣
4♦-4♥*

Now as opener I would like to now if 4♥ is passable or whether it is a cue for clubs (or spades).

I cannot see this going anywhere without 2♣ being a investigative bid of some form. then you fit in all the subsequent responses around that premise. How and what you fit the 3♠ bid into the system is up to you.

[hotShot]

helene_t, on Jun 3 2008, 01:44 PM, said:

Yes, 1♠ as either natural or FSF is what came out of the Biedermeijer enquete also (there was also a majority for not playing Walsh but the two questions were asked independently).

Obviously 1♠ is forcing whether it is natural or not. I think the problem is that if it goes
1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
3♠-4c/d/h

4c/d/h is ambiguous. Is it a hand that wanted to set that suit as trump via fsf, or is it a cue for spades?

Is it really ambiguous?
If responder had ♥, there must have been a forcing ♥ raise over 1♥.
If responder does not have ♠'s (and is sort of balanced), than (if 3♠ shows support) he can bid 3NT now.
If he does not have 4 ♠ or 4 ♥ and is unbalanced, he could have forced using inverted minors or splinter, if holding a ♣ fit.
If he does not have 4 ♠ or 4 ♥ or 4-5♣ and is unbalanced, there must be/have been a forcing way to show his long diamonds. Even bidding 3NT would be an option now.
Obviously you need to know a few agreements here.

Another problem is:
If 1♠ is natural and forcing (F1) how do you force opener to bid on next round?
1♣-1♦
1♥-1♠
1NT/2♣ - ?
You don't have a new suit to bid, if you repeat your suit it's not forcing, if you raise partners suit now, it does not promise a good fit and is not forcing.

[SoTired]

I vote for simple. I hate exceptions because sometimes you forget that last year we made such-and-such auction an exception.

So.....

I think the easiest way to play is that in a Non-GF auction, the 4th suit is artificial and GF. No exceptions. Otherwise 4th suit is natural. But sometimes you fudge the naturalness of many bids just to bide your time.

So 1C-1D;1H-1S is 4th suit forcing. If responder is weak with a major 4-4, then responder will just have to pick one of opener's suits or rebid 1N and hope opener does not have 4-4 in majors.

If responder has a natural spade suit with at least invitational strength, then responder can bid 2S, which is also forcing, but only invitational. This makes more sense as you don't want to crowd the auction with a non-descriptive bid. Crowd the auction with a descriptive bid makes more sense.

Also, 1D-1S;2C-2H is 4SF. Why? Main reason is no exceptions. But 2nd reason is: Odds are opener does not have 0454. Also, if responder has invitational hand with 5-5 in majors, responder can bid 3H to show this. So if responder has invitational hand with major 5-4, responder will just have to live with always rebidding 2N in that situation. If responder is weak, responder will just have to choose one of opener's suits.