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bidding

#21 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2008-May-26, 14:17

andy_h, on May 25 2008, 11:53 AM, said:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> A8765 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> 84 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> K9 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> T974 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

Playing 2/1, you have the constructive auction (partner is dealer) of:
1♦ - 1♠
2♣ -  ?

I'm wondering what your style of 2♦ vs. 3♣ is here (when holding say, doubleton or Hx in opener's 1st suit and 4card support of 2nd suit) ? Is it usually down to the suit quality of the 2nd suit?

Great post ty for posting. Given that I do play a style that can have 4d and 5clubs and open on junk, I think this is a really tough hand. x...xxx....AQTx...Axxxx
1) 2D could find us playing in a 4-2 fit
2) Pard will take 3clubs as so much more than this from me...around 12 -13 total points for me.
3) pass could miss an imp game.

I guess at imps I will make one more bid with this hand, 2D, but I thought it was a very diffficult choice
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#22 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:01

andy_h, on May 26 2008, 05:35 AM, said:

Thanks. Coming from an area where pretty much everyone plays new suit is forcing in auctions like 1D-1M-2C, 1C-1H-1S, 1H-1S-2C etc I'm now trying to get around that with the 'NF' style. In those days, we'd have bite our tongues to bid 3C with like a weak hand and 4153/5134 after an auction of 1H-1S-2C- or make a false preference back to opener's suit.

So back onto this hand, is the raise of opener's 2nd suit always an invitational style kind of hand that looks like a 10-11? Or is it the kind of hand that has like a good 8ish count or something that will interest opener if he has those invitiational 15/6/7 hands? What if the hand was something like ♠A8765 ♥xxx ♦x ♣KT98 or ♠KT9xx ♥xxx ♦x ♣KQTx ?

I would say 9 is pretty frequent with 3C, and some 8s (especially those with 5 clubs). I mean it's just about judgement, but if your options are passing and bidding 3C (ie you cannot preference) then you would probably strain a lot more to bid 3C than if you had a hand that could preference.

For instance with Axxxx xxx x KJxx I would certainly raise but with AJxxx xx Kx xxxx I would just preference. Because I'm not too scared about missing a game if I bid 2D in the second one (partner will usually bid if we have a game), and I prefer to stay low and not get overboard by bidding 3C, however in the first one my options are pass and 3C so I feel that I have to bid 3C since passing could miss a game very easily. I would acknowledge that we could get too high by bidding 3C in the first one though if partner has something like a 15 count or so that has to bid.

At what point you have enough to bid 3C is certainly debatable, I just think the original hand is not enough and not even really that close. I find the argument that "we may make 3C and go down in 2D" laughable because that has to be such a small subset of hands (clubs 2 tricks better with partner PASSING) compared to the sets of hands where you get too high by bidding 3C. Maybe people who routinely open 1D and then bid 2C with 4-5 or for ken 3-5 have more of a problem being in an unplayable partscore after bidding 2D.

Basically, gnashers original post was 100 % correct.
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#23 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:08

2♦ but I really don't object to a pass. The false preference is common on this hand type, but the hands where we are making game are few and far between.
"Phil" on BBO
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#24 User is offline   junyi_zhu 

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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:18

andy_h, on May 25 2008, 04:53 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP


Playing 2/1, you have the constructive auction (partner is dealer) of:
1♦ - 1♠
2♣ - ?

I'm wondering what your style of 2♦ vs. 3♣ is here (when holding say, doubleton or Hx in opener's 1st suit and 4card support of 2nd suit) ? Is it usually down to the suit quality of the 2nd suit?

I tend to bid 2D here, this is a good 7, and when you find S fit, it certainly worths more than 7. S fit isn't likely, but still possible. also, you like to play 5C if partner can bid 3C over 2D, for example, he may hold x xx AQJxx AKJxx, the chance for 5C is good enough IMO. If he holds x xx AQxxx AKQxx, you really don't want to miss 5C.
3c is an overbid, which is my second choice. A third choice is pass. Still, pass may work
out well sometimes.
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#25 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2008-May-26, 17:34

pclayton, on May 26 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

2♦ but I really don't object to a pass. The false preference is common on this hand type, but the hands where we are making game are few and far between.

That's why I'll just pass as game is unlikely and we may have an 8 card ♣ fit but only a 7 card ♦ fit.

PD may have 3 or possibly 4♥ noting the opp's silence. Even,if PD has a big hand, the opps may have enough ♥ to get to 2♥ giving us another chance.

Passing tells PD I am weak and have 4+♣. I'll take my chance on missing the occasion game if PD has a good hand with 3♠ or has 17 or 18 unbalanced HCP not good enough to jump shift forcing to game and some game makes.

I don't fault 2♦ looking for more, but just think more is unlikely. I would bid 2♦ with just one more useful HCP.

.. neilkaz ..
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#26 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-May-27, 04:51

2♦ is a nice trick. If pard has some extras, he'll move on and we get to game. I sometimes use this false preference, but this time I didn't rememeber it. It's an interesting way to solve the problem. But 3♣, albeit a tad lightish, can also work ok.
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#27 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2008-May-27, 10:21

Another one I don't get.

I have Ace and Space in spades. If partner has 3 card spade support, what does he have? 3244 and too weak to open 1NT? We may as well quit now. 3154? So the opponents have 10 good hearts between them, lots of chances to show them, and forgot to? And why didn't your partner bid 2♠? I'm having a very hard time imagining a reasonable hand for partner where we make 4♠.

This hand looks awful for NT. Way too many spaces, not enough entries, small doubleton in the unbid suit. And I don't think that this hand has extras in support of diamonds. The doubleton is wasted with only two trump.

I think that, since this hand doesn't have extras in support of diamonds or NT, and I think the odds of making 4♠ are vanishingly small, I think that 2♦ is not an option. It's not that I think it's horrible to bid 2♦ with 2-4 in the minors. It's just that I want more strength than this in support of 3NT.

The hand has extras, but only in a club contract. So I think your only choices should be 3♣ or pass. I'm going to pass, but I'll probably regret it.
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