[gnasher]

Free, on May 22 2008, 08:45 AM, said:

gnasher, on May 22 2008, 08:41 AM, said:

1♠-2♥
3♦-3♥
4♦-4♥
pass

Sorry, was I supposed to work out what the best contract was before deciding how to bid it?

Are you kidding??? After partner shows extra's you're going to settle for 4♥ with North's hand and not even try for slam?

I'd move if I thought I could reliably bid a slam when it was making, and not when it wasn't. However, with the auction as it's gone the only available try for slam in hearts is 5♥, which doesn't allow much room for science.

Furthermore, the five level isn't necessarily safe - partner might have something like AKQxx x KQJxx xx or AQJxx x AKJxx xx. I hate going down at the five level.

Finally, one some hands (not this one, obviously), partner may move over 4♥. He knows that I didn't bid 4♥ directly over 3♦, which I would have done with self-supporting hearts and a minimum.

[karlson]

Jlall, on May 22 2008, 01:34 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on May 22 2008, 10:13 AM, said:

Jlall, on May 22 2008, 02:42 PM, said:

4C natural goes against all of my general partnership rules but I also don't see any reason why it should be artificial (since it's being bid after a minor which you can raise in a forcing manner below game). Guess I should ask my partner's about it, but at the table I bet they would have thought I was cuebidding for diamonds.

4C here would be interpreted by my partners as "I don't know what to bid but I'm too strong to bid 3NT or 4NT"

It must imply some club length, because you are implying that you can't bid anything else naturally, but I don't think it has to have extreme length. What would you bid on

A
AQJxx
KQx
KQxx

?

I like this I think.

How are you going to continue though? Whatever opener bids, you're not going to have a forcing raise of that available. Will 4N then be keycard for the last bid suit? Will new suits be cues for the last suit? Seems everything can be natural.

It seems like with this hand, you should just bid 4d, keycard, try to find out about HK, and then bid the right number of NT. I agree that it's guessing a bit, but I'm not envisioning the intelligent auction after 4c. Enlighten?

I think that by my rules, 4c would definitely a cue for diamonds on this auction. Maybe 4d can just be a diamond raise without a club control?

[jdonn]

For me 4♣ would certainly be natural, I would never have an artificial raise or cuebid-raise of the last suit available on the same level as a natural forcing raise. As for both Frances's example and the original hand posted, they are both very difficult and I don't claim brilliant answers.

[neilkaz]

jdonn, on May 22 2008, 04:56 PM, said:

For me 4♣ would certainly be natural, I would never have an artificial raise or cuebid-raise of the last suit available on the same level as a natural forcing raise. As for both Frances's example and the original hand posted, they are both very difficult and I don't claim brilliant answers.

4♣ natural for me. I can untangle this hand to 6♣ after that, but not after the also natural 3♥ rebidding 6 carder and perhaps saving room.

I guess 4♣ patterning out and showing good strength is superior to 3♥

[Winstonm]

matmat, on May 21 2008, 04:02 PM, said:

fortunately for me, hands like this are systemically forbidden in all my partnerships.

That's a great system - do you have a book out?

[Flameous]

4♣ is my bid, most of the time it's supposed to be cue for diamonds, but after some 4 level response (4♥ this case) 5♣ tells it's real suit. Then 6♣ seems somewhat clear.

[neilkaz]

Winstonm, on May 22 2008, 06:19 PM, said:

matmat, on May 21 2008, 04:02 PM, said:

fortunately for me, hands like this are systemically forbidden in all my partnerships.

That's a great system - do you have a book out?

He does, indeed.. I keep my copy handy in the bathroom

j/k off course

[whereagles]

Jlall, on May 22 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

4C natural goes against all of my general partnership rules but I also don't see any reason why it should be artificial (since it's being bid after a minor which you can raise in a forcing manner below game).

Agree to the natural meaning of 4♣, though I would be pessimistic on this one and settle for the relative underbid of 3NT after 3♦. Sure, opposite a good opener hand, it can even make 7(!!), but I think it's risky to try for a slam without methods that CLEARLY allow you to stop in 4NT if the slam try fails.

Guess I'm getting old.. eheh.