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What hands with 4d and 5clubs would you open one diamond on? For this thread please assume you play Walsh, you respond in a 4 card major with longer d on many hands less than game force.
What hands would you open 1D on?
#1
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Posted 2008-May-26, 14:30
#2
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Posted 2008-May-26, 14:38
Never one with 3♠ or 4♠. IF partner responds 1♥ over 1♣, i can bid 1NT (ok, off shape) or 1♠. If partner responds 1♠, i can raise to 2♠.
With 1♠, I would tend to open 1♣ as well, with a 1NT rebid in mind if partner responds 1♠. However, with 0♠, i would open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ over 1♠ response.
With 2-2 in the majors, it depends on rather i would feel fine rebidding 1NT of 1 of either major. If yes, i open 1♣, if not 1♦.
Of course with a hand stong enough to reverse, always open 1♣.
With 1♠, I would tend to open 1♣ as well, with a 1NT rebid in mind if partner responds 1♠. However, with 0♠, i would open 1♦ and rebid 2♣ over 1♠ response.
With 2-2 in the majors, it depends on rather i would feel fine rebidding 1NT of 1 of either major. If yes, i open 1♣, if not 1♦.
Of course with a hand stong enough to reverse, always open 1♣.
--Ben--
#3 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-26, 14:55
I would say I do it maybe 5 % of the time. I had xxx x AKTx AJ9xx yesterday and opened 1D.
You just have to prioritize it in terms of how often you're willing to rebid 1N with a stiff vs how often you're willing to rebid 1S with 3 vs how often you're willing to rebid a 5 card club suit vs how often you're willing to open 1D and rebid 2C vs how often you're willing to open 1N with a stiff.
Personally I am willing to rebid 1N with a stiff almost always, and open 1N with a stiff honor almost always with that shape. I am willing to open 1C and rebid 2C with 5 almost 0 % of the time. I am willing to rebid a 3 card spade suit rarely.
So for me a 1D then 2C is usually 15-16 with 4-5 and without a stiff honor and without a chunky 3 card spade suit, or 12+ with totally concentrated values in the minors.
1C then 1S is usually only with concentrated spades/clubs.
1N is with a stiff honor.
1C then 2C is only with 15-16 without a stiff honor and with very poor diamonds and with very good clubs and without 3 good spades, or just completely concentrated clubs 12+ (x Qxx xxxx AKQJx, x AJx xxxx AKQJT etc).
1C then 1N is everything else (almost all hands with this shape).
You just have to prioritize it in terms of how often you're willing to rebid 1N with a stiff vs how often you're willing to rebid 1S with 3 vs how often you're willing to rebid a 5 card club suit vs how often you're willing to open 1D and rebid 2C vs how often you're willing to open 1N with a stiff.
Personally I am willing to rebid 1N with a stiff almost always, and open 1N with a stiff honor almost always with that shape. I am willing to open 1C and rebid 2C with 5 almost 0 % of the time. I am willing to rebid a 3 card spade suit rarely.
So for me a 1D then 2C is usually 15-16 with 4-5 and without a stiff honor and without a chunky 3 card spade suit, or 12+ with totally concentrated values in the minors.
1C then 1S is usually only with concentrated spades/clubs.
1N is with a stiff honor.
1C then 2C is only with 15-16 without a stiff honor and with very poor diamonds and with very good clubs and without 3 good spades, or just completely concentrated clubs 12+ (x Qxx xxxx AKQJx, x AJx xxxx AKQJT etc).
1C then 1N is everything else (almost all hands with this shape).
#4
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Posted 2008-May-26, 14:58
Jlall agrees with me.
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#5 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-May-26, 15:03
Guess I should add that for me 2245 is a wtp 1C then 1N becuase you are perfectly fine selling that as balanced. Even with xx xx AQxx AKxxx I would be perfectly happy bidding 1C then 1N, that is why I did not include that shape in my initial post.
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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:08
mike777, on May 26 2008, 08:30 PM, said:
What hands with 4d and 5clubs would you open one diamond on? For this thread please assume you play Walsh, you respond in a 4 card major with longer d on many hands less than game force.
I just open 1C with 4-5 in m cause our 1NT rebid doesn't promise a doubleton or longer in responder's suit.
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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:12
Wow great and very helpful responses so far ty.
It has not been stated but I am guessing partners do not often rebid 2 of the major with only a 5 card suit after 1c=1M=1nt=? And of course responder cannot rebid 2d with many weakish hands.
And of course playing Walsh you may just miss your 4-4 D fits when p is weak with 5(4) card Major and 4Diamonds and you play 1nt it seems?
It has not been stated but I am guessing partners do not often rebid 2 of the major with only a 5 card suit after 1c=1M=1nt=? And of course responder cannot rebid 2d with many weakish hands.
And of course playing Walsh you may just miss your 4-4 D fits when p is weak with 5(4) card Major and 4Diamonds and you play 1nt it seems?
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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:23
mike777, on May 26 2008, 09:12 PM, said:
Wow great and very helpful responses so far ty.
It has not been stated but I am guessing partners do not often rebid 2 of the major with only a 5 card suit after 1c=1M=1nt=? And of course responder cannot rebid 2d with many weakish hands.
And of course playing Walsh you may just miss your 4-4 D fits when p is weak with 5(4) card Major and 4Diamonds and you play 1nt it seems?
It has not been stated but I am guessing partners do not often rebid 2 of the major with only a 5 card suit after 1c=1M=1nt=? And of course responder cannot rebid 2d with many weakish hands.
And of course playing Walsh you may just miss your 4-4 D fits when p is weak with 5(4) card Major and 4Diamonds and you play 1nt it seems?
yeah, our system wasn't designed for good partials. It usually lands us at reasonable partials, not the best partials. So we miss more 5-3 M fit partials than standard treatment, but we generally do better in game and especially slam biddings cause
1NT usually keeps the bidding low and we can usually make a lot of accurate bids after 1NT rebid, such as two way nmf.
#9
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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:55
mike777, on May 26 2008, 09:30 PM, said:
What hands with 4d and 5clubs would you open one diamond on?
None. I'm happy to open 1♣ and rebid 1NT or 2♣.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
#10
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Posted 2008-May-26, 15:58
mike777, on May 26 2008, 09:30 PM, said:
What hands with 4d and 5clubs would you open one diamond on? For this thread please assume you play Walsh, you respond in a 4 card major with longer d on many hands less than game force.
Basically none.
I don't mind rebidding 2C with 5 if I can't think of anything better to do.
(OK, xx Jx AKQJ Qxxxx I can see myself opening 1D and rebidding 1NT, but that's about it.)
I know Precision players open 1D with 4-5 either way round. I know some 'standard' players open 1D with 4-5. I just can't make it work - you have to change all your subsequent auctions to cope with this.
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Posted 2008-May-26, 17:16
FrancesHinden, on May 26 2008, 04:58 PM, said:
mike777, on May 26 2008, 09:30 PM, said:
What hands with 4d and 5clubs would you open one diamond on? For this thread please assume you play Walsh, you respond in a 4 card major with longer d on many hands less than game force.
Basically none.
I don't mind rebidding 2C with 5 if I can't think of anything better to do.
(OK, xx Jx AKQJ Qxxxx I can see myself opening 1D and rebidding 1NT, but that's about it.)
I know Precision players open 1D with 4-5 either way round. I know some 'standard' players open 1D with 4-5. I just can't make it work - you have to change all your subsequent auctions to cope with this.
Agreeing with Francis, basically none..OK maybe 1-2 %..gotta have a real good 4 card ♦ and a crummy 5 card ♣ and never 2245 as will open 1♣ and rebid 1NT or raise 2♦
#12
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Posted 2008-May-26, 19:00
I'm now in the camp that opens 1♦ when the 4-card diamond suit looks like a five-card suit, the 5-card club suit looks like a 4-card suit, and I don't have three spades.
2245 questionable.
If I have three spades, I open 1♣ and then bid 1♠ after 1♥ from partner, or raise 1♠ to 2♠.
2245 questionable.
If I have three spades, I open 1♣ and then bid 1♠ after 1♥ from partner, or raise 1♠ to 2♠.
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#13
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Posted 2008-May-26, 19:13
All on hands that are not strong enough to reverse. With a 2-2-4-5 shape if the hand falls into the NT zone, I open that.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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Posted 2008-May-26, 19:37
Jlall, on May 26 2008, 01:03 PM, said:
Guess I should add that for me 2245 is a wtp 1C then 1N becuase you are perfectly fine selling that as balanced. Even with xx xx AQxx AKxxx I would be perfectly happy bidding 1C then 1N, that is why I did not include that shape in my initial post.
I remember Passell talking to you at San Diego last year about something like xx xx AKxx ATxxx. He would open 1♦ and rebid 2♣. He didn't like 1♣ - 1x - 1N since the hand is so 'sharp'.
Agree with the rest of your post, but I'm probably more apt to rebid 1N on any 1345 with or without a stiff spade honor.
"Phil" on BBO
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Posted 2008-May-26, 19:53
Always 1♣ for me.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
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Posted 2008-May-27, 05:03
I'm ok with 1♣ always, followed by 2♣ if pard bids a major or 1NT.
This style is common in Europe, where we usually don't open 1♦ on 45 minors nor rebid 1NT on singletons.
This style is common in Europe, where we usually don't open 1♦ on 45 minors nor rebid 1NT on singletons.
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Posted 2008-May-27, 10:16
I have found these rules useful:
1) My diam suit is particularly strong and great opening lead, and
2) My club suit is particularly weak and a lousy opening lead, and
3) I am too weak for a reverse (about 17 hcp)
Something like: Kxx x AKxx Jxxxx, I will open 1D
1) My diam suit is particularly strong and great opening lead, and
2) My club suit is particularly weak and a lousy opening lead, and
3) I am too weak for a reverse (about 17 hcp)
Something like: Kxx x AKxx Jxxxx, I will open 1D
It costs nothing to be nice -- my better half
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Posted 2008-May-27, 10:54
I cannot remember the last time I did it.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
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#19
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Posted 2008-May-27, 11:06
I think I do it 10-15% of the time that I'm unbalanced and pretty much never when I'm 2245. This seems to be more often than most of my partners but I'm happy with it.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#20
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Posted 2008-May-27, 11:14
I never open this way; then again I don't usually play Walsh either.
A few people have commented that this kind of bidding is normal in a strong club system, but there are a few points to make about that:
(1) I'd say this is one of the disadvantages of a strong club, that one accepts in exchange for the other benefits.
(2) In a strong club system you almost never need to "false preference" on this auction because opener is limited; this reduces the odds of playing a 4-2 diamond fit when holding a 9-card club fit.
Having opened 1♣ with 4♦-5♣, I will normally rebid 1NT if I am 2-2 majors or partner bids my singleton major or raise partner with 3-card support for partner's major. I don't mind reversing on 16 hcp with this shape (I play lighter reverses than some); with 15 I will open 1NT with 2245 or rebid either 2♣ (good clubs) or 1NT (poor clubs) with (13)45 when partner bids my singleton.
A few people have commented that this kind of bidding is normal in a strong club system, but there are a few points to make about that:
(1) I'd say this is one of the disadvantages of a strong club, that one accepts in exchange for the other benefits.
(2) In a strong club system you almost never need to "false preference" on this auction because opener is limited; this reduces the odds of playing a 4-2 diamond fit when holding a 9-card club fit.
Having opened 1♣ with 4♦-5♣, I will normally rebid 1NT if I am 2-2 majors or partner bids my singleton major or raise partner with 3-card support for partner's major. I don't mind reversing on 16 hcp with this shape (I play lighter reverses than some); with 15 I will open 1NT with 2245 or rebid either 2♣ (good clubs) or 1NT (poor clubs) with (13)45 when partner bids my singleton.
Adam W. Meyerson
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