[kenrexford]

Jlall, on May 19 2008, 05:40 PM, said:

kenrexford, on May 19 2008, 05:28 PM, said:

Jlall, on May 19 2008, 07:05 AM, said:

I would easily accept both, but I agree with kenrexford that 3C is much more of a courtesy kind of raise and 2N is much more of a power kind of raise. I think with this hand you should accept the courtesy raise though, I mean with Kxx of clubs and the SA you make 3N on 2-2 clubs and he can easily have more than that even for a courtesy raise. I don't really understand accept over 3C and not 2N though, I guess that shows an opposite interpretation than I have.

Yeah, I suppose it is IMPs. The concern was some mess of junk with the spade Ace and club Queen. If I had even AJ9xxx in clubs, that would be clear enough. Ace-empty is ugly.

I always bid game what can I say

"3♣"
"Sir, what does 3♣ show?"
"That's a courtesy raise. He might have barely a heartbeat, keeping the auction open in case I have the absolute perfecto hand."
"Is it forcing?"
"Yes, for me."

LOL

[awm]

Partner held:

♠KJxx
♥Qxx
♦Jxx
♣KJ9

At my table, partner selected 2NT and I passed. My reasoning was much like that expressed by others who would accept a 3♣ invite but reject 2NT -- I feared that opposite a doubleton club (or even singleton!) the odds of running my suit would not be so good.

Game is just okay on this hand; clubs are not guaranteed to play for six tricks and even if they do there is no sure ninth trick (but many chances).

The defense at my table started with a high diamond which partner ducked, and continued a second high diamond (perhaps not best) to dummy's ace. Partner proceeded to play clubs, which were QTx offside (so no way to pick up the suit). LHO won the third round and played a heart, which partner ducked to RHO's king. RHO now played a spade; partner has lost three tricks at this point (one diamond duck, one club, one heart) and needs to guess the spades correctly to make three. He guessed wrong, fortunately we were only in 2NT so we scored up +120.

Our opponents bid game and went one down. Of course, this is luck -- if clubs had behaved we would probably have lost six imps instead of winning five.

[skjaeran]

To me 2♦ as a conventional tool here is standard.
Thus 2NT is strongly invitational with at least club tolerance, whild 3♣ is more of a courtesy raise. I'd rebid 3NT over both though.

[kenrexford]

skaeran, on May 21 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

To me 2♦ as a conventional tool here is standard.
Thus 2NT is strongly invitational with at least club tolerance, whild 3♣ is more of a courtesy raise. I'd rebid 3NT over both though.

So, you employ the most intelligent structure (the one I use, of course ), but you are also a lunatic like Justin? LOL

[neilkaz]

skaeran, on May 21 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

To me 2♦ as a conventional tool here is standard.
Thus 2NT is strongly invitational with at least club tolerance, whild 3♣ is more of a courtesy raise. I'd rebid 3NT over both though.

We agree.

[kenrexford]

Actually, I wonder what is more "lunatic."

Taking the bait and accepting a courtesy raise with this hand?

Or, making a courtesy raise with something like ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx?

I suppose I would tend lunatic with the courtesy raise. I might even do it with ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qx.

[benlessard]

We are a passed hand so i dont see why 2D is forcing. The upside of having a courtesy raise seems lower then having the chance to play 2D or to make a natural 2D bid. I dont remember last time i had a problem with this setup

pass-----1C
1M-------2C
???

2D natural
2M natural
2Nt natural probably C shortness
3C sound raise.

Quote

Or, making a courtesy raise with something like ♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx?

I really dont see any intelligent reason to make a courtesy raise with that.


Also If

1D---1S
2D---???

Do you still play that 3D is a courtesy raise and that 2Nt show D tolerance ?

[ArtK78]

skaeran, on May 21 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

To me 2♦ as a conventional tool here is standard.

The bid of the other minor in the auction 1m - 1M - 2m - ? is conventional the way that I play it. This was written up in The Bridge World some years ago. The article was titled "Extended PLOB." The acronym PLOB stands for "petty little odious bid," which was Sonny Moyse's term for New Minor Forcing. So, Extended PLOB is a variation of New Minor Forcing.

If you play Extended PLOB, a simple bid of 2♥ on this auction is nonforcing, i.e., 1♣ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥. This is true whether or not responder is a passed hand. In standard, a new suit by responder is always forcing (other than a passed hand). To force, responder must go through the new minor bid before bidding his second suit.

[FrancesHinden]

This is worrying, I actually agree with benlessard on bidding point for about the first time ever...

jlall said:

Not sure if I was clear but I also think 2D is clearly art. I thought "everyone" played this and that it was as common as 1C p 1M p 1N p 2D being artificial (and they need to be artificial for similar reasons).

I play 2D as natural here, passed hand or not (although with the understanding that a non-passed responder sometimes may not have 4 of them).

Until pretty recently I played 1C p 1M p 1NT p 2D as natural as well in one regular partnership (2C was artificial).

I certainly wouldn't assume that 3C was a 'courtesy' raise, I assume it shows an invitational hand with a club fit, while 2NT shows an invitational hand with stuff in the red suits and usually a doubleton club at most (unless it strongly wants to declare NT).

While I can see some advantages to playing 2D as artificial, I don't seem to run into any problems not playing it as natural(ish). I'm not anti-kit either, it's just not an auction that really seems to need an artificial relay, (unlike auctions starting 1D - P - 2C where we play loads of artificiality).

[kenrexford]

The reason for playing 3♣ as a courtesy raise here is that the scoring is IMP. When the layout could be:

♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx
♠x ♥Axx ♦Axx ♣AJ10xxx

The game bid is important at teams, as I recall.

Contrast the importance of bidding games with the importance, at teams, of converting from a 2♣ contract with a probable 6+ suit to a two-level diamond or spade contract with unknown fit strength.

If 3♣ is a courtesy raise, then you need a power raise. Hence, 2NT.

You also need a general good hand bid. That could be 2NT instead, making 2♦ a power diamond raise. But, it seems to make sense to have 2♦ as the power punt bid, because this has a bonus of helping when Responder has a fifth spade. Two birds and all. Plus, 2NT without direction is quite preemptive. 2NT with focus (clubs, or notrump) is not.

So, the courteous people get to thin games. The non-courteous people beat us down on those 2♦ partials.

[Flame]

1C-1S
2C-2D
is artificial but why does this mean that 2NT show support ?
3C show support, 2NT show stopers, 2D im not sure what to play yet which means i think suggests more in the C suit then 2NT does.

[skjaeran]

Flame, on May 22 2008, 03:02 PM, said:

1C-1S
2C-2D
is artificial but why does this mean that 2NT show support ?
3C show support, 2NT show stopers, 2D im not sure what to play yet which means i think suggests more in the C suit then 2NT does.

2♦ followed by 2NT is invitational without 'support' for me.

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on May 22 2008, 01:57 PM, said:

So, the courteous people get to thin games. The non-courteous people beat us down on those 2♦ partials.

I never said 2♦ is non-forcing

[FrancesHinden]

kenrexford, on May 22 2008, 01:57 PM, said:

The reason for playing 3♣ as a courtesy raise here is that the scoring is IMP. When the layout could be:

♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx
♠x ♥Axx ♦Axx ♣AJ10xxx

The game bid is important at teams, as I recall.

This may come as a bit of surprise to you Ken, but I don't actually design my bidding systems to enable me to bid combined 19-point 3NT contracts that are fractionally worse than a finesse.

If you do, then I think you are missing out on some more important parts of the uncontested auction.

As I already said, I can see the merit in an artificial 2D bid, but suggesting it's to allow us to bid this sort of game is a bit silly.

[kenrexford]

FrancesHinden, on May 22 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

kenrexford, on May 22 2008, 01:57 PM, said:

The reason for playing 3♣ as a courtesy raise here is that the scoring is IMP.  When the layout could be:

♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx
♠x ♥Axx ♦Axx ♣AJ10xxx

The game bid is important at teams, as I recall.

This may come as a bit of surprise to you Ken, but I don't actually design my bidding systems to enable me to bid combined 19-point 3NT contracts that are fractionally worse than a finesse.

If you do, then I think you are missing out on some more important parts of the uncontested auction.

As I already said, I can see the merit in an artificial 2D bid, but suggesting it's to allow us to bid this sort of game is a bit silly.

The spade Ace, club Queen is the very extreme, of course. Keep in mind that the critical cards may total 19 but fluff cards might exist, as well.

That said, why not? I think it makes a lot of sense to have a passed hand enabled to seek the nine-rippers game after a third-seat minor opening rebid. The cards needed are six running clubs (AKQ = 9) plus three side Aces (AAA = 12), or 21 HCP, for a laydown. If Opener has the Ace, good secondaries, and a knowledge that partner has the King or Queen, why not bid game on a finesse at IMP scoring?

The bid does not cater to partner bidding game because he wants to place his money on a finesse. Rather, consider a hand for Opener like ♠x ♥Axx ♦Axx ♣AQxxxx. Is he supposed to jump to 3♣ immediately? How about ♠Kx ♥Ax ♦xxx ♣KQxxxx? If Rersponder has a club card, it must be the Ace. He also has another card, likely the spade Ace. Is it fair to hope that the opponents cannot rip five diamonds or find the right lead?

The courtesy raise, to me, shows a club card and an Ace if minimum. That makes sense to me.

[whereagles]

Jlall, on May 22 2008, 02:07 AM, said:

Not sure if I was clear but I also think 2D is clearly art.

In advanced french standard (SEF), it's indeed artificial and is called "3rd suit forcing."

[benlessard]

Quote

In advanced french standard (SEF), it's indeed artificial and is called "3rd suit forcing."

IMHO Not by a passed hand. Even 4th suit by a passed hand isnt always forcing.

New minor + 4th suit forcing + 3rd + other gadget lose a lot of their utility when they are done by a passed hand.

[the hog]

kenrexford, on May 23 2008, 12:16 AM, said:

FrancesHinden, on May 22 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

kenrexford, on May 22 2008, 01:57 PM, said:

The reason for playing 3♣ as a courtesy raise here is that the scoring is IMP.  When the layout could be:

♠Axxx ♥xxx ♦xxx ♣Qxx
♠x ♥Axx ♦Axx ♣AJ10xxx

The game bid is important at teams, as I recall.

This may come as a bit of surprise to you Ken, but I don't actually design my bidding systems to enable me to bid combined 19-point 3NT contracts that are fractionally worse than a finesse.

If you do, then I think you are missing out on some more important parts of the uncontested auction.

As I already said, I can see the merit in an artificial 2D bid, but suggesting it's to allow us to bid this sort of game is a bit silly.

The spade Ace, club Queen is the very extreme, of course. Keep in mind that the critical cards may total 19 but fluff cards might exist, as well.

That said, why not? I think it makes a lot of sense to have a passed hand enabled to seek the nine-rippers game after a third-seat minor opening rebid. The cards needed are six running clubs (AKQ = 9) plus three side Aces (AAA = 12), or 21 HCP, for a laydown. If Opener has the Ace, good secondaries, and a knowledge that partner has the King or Queen, why not bid game on a finesse at IMP scoring?

The bid does not cater to partner bidding game because he wants to place his money on a finesse. Rather, consider a hand for Opener like ♠x ♥Axx ♦Axx ♣AQxxxx. Is he supposed to jump to 3♣ immediately? How about ♠Kx ♥Ax ♦xxx ♣KQxxxx? If Rersponder has a club card, it must be the Ace. He also has another card, likely the spade Ace. Is it fair to hope that the opponents cannot rip five diamonds or find the right lead?

The courtesy raise, to me, shows a club card and an Ace if minimum. That makes sense to me.

Ken if you bid thrunt on this then good luck to you matey. I bet by staying out of this your results will be better overall - and who says that pd has the SA?