[kenrexford]

jdonn, on May 14 2008, 10:50 PM, said:

kenrexford, on May 14 2008, 10:25 PM, said:

This is a difficult hand to call "invitational," I admit.

However, difficult hands require choices.  Do you elect to low-ball or elect to high-ball?  That decision often is made after reflection upon the respective difficulties of approaching the hand each way.

This hand pattern will be a mess to describe.  So, it seems preferable to use a rough estimate of the playing strength (about a seven-loser hand) if that serves my ultimate goal of an ideal auction.  With a void in partner's opened suit, I want to focus the hearts NOW and shut down (or strongly dissuade) his spade-suit exploration.

Thus, I am calling this "invitational" because it is the assessment of playing strength that leads to the most convenient auction.

Also, perhaps more important, is that the 3♦ jump actually shows about 8-11, or constructive+ to just under "GF."  Because 1♠-P-2♥ is often bid with an optimistic view as to the value needed to force game, for the same ease-of-auction reasons, then the "invitational" assessment for this call is perhaps more fanciful.

So to clarify:
- You upgrade due to having a void in partner's suit.
- You upgrade since it will be hard to show your shape whether you upgrade or not.
- You confuse "difficult hand to call invitational" with "difficult hand" (after all, it's a difficult hand to call a limit raise in spades too.)
- You make up a false definition of invitational as 8-11 based on a false premise of upgrading to force to game with long hearts (false in the context of having an invitational bid to show hearts available.) I mean lets play follow-the-logic. "People upgrade to game force since they can't easily show invitational hands. Therefore I create a bid to show invitational hands. Therefore I reduce the values required to show an invitational hand since people are upgrading to game force."

I mean it's your system, 3♦ can show whatever you want it to. I myself play the 3♥ response natural and invitational. However lets not pretend this hand is invitational when it clearly isn't, purely based on hindsight.

None of that even addresses the misguidedness of showing invitational with hearts on a hand like this, bad hearts to the ace and a good minor. You will miss diamond games and slams left and right.

Yeah, maybe so.

I don't like this hand.

[jtfanclub]

P_Marlowe, on May 15 2008, 02:56 AM, said:

Hi,

it is either Pass or 4S, I would go with 4S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Why 4S? If he hates hearts, he'll bid spades himself.

I hope he will understand that I have a weak hand with six hearts...after all, that's what 1NT followed by hearts shows. If he has two small hearts and 15 hcp, I'll happily take my chances in hearts. I don't expect partner to pass 4♥ with a singleton. Maybe I should.

[the hog]

jtfanclub, on May 15 2008, 09:06 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on May 15 2008, 02:56 AM, said:

Hi,

it is either Pass or 4S, I would go with 4S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Why 4S? If he hates hearts, he'll bid spades himself.

I hope he will understand that I have a weak hand with six hearts...after all, that's what 1NT followed by hearts shows. If he has two small hearts and 15 hcp, I'll happily take my chances in hearts. I don't expect partner to pass 4♥ with a singleton. Maybe I should.

You should expect him to pass with a void!
You are showing a hand with no use for S and only H as a decent contract. 4H is NOT a suggestion.

[jtfanclub]

The_Hog, on May 15 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

4H is NOT a suggestion.

This is just one of those logic things that escapes me.

I've shown a weak hand- too weak to invite in hearts. Partner has not denied two or three hearts.

Which is more likely? That I have the magic holding with one loser in hearts in spite of my weakness, or that I have a 6 card heart suit that wants to play in hearts if partner has a doubleton? Why play a system where you miss your 6-3 major suit fit, just so you can have a demand bid for a one-in-a-million shot?

[babalu1997]

CSGibson, on May 15 2008, 01:17 AM, said:

I may be way off base here, but I'm bidding 3NT. It's the same 9 tricks, but I get a bonus if it makes this way. All I really need is 1) a favorable lead and 2) a heart honor in partner's hand to make this a reasonable gamble. Matchpoints and I pass.

Hallelujah!!!!! someone bid 3NT!!!!!

right on in imps!!!!!

now back to lurking behind the rose bush

[jdonn]

The_Hog, on May 15 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

jtfanclub, on May 15 2008, 09:06 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on May 15 2008, 02:56 AM, said:

Hi,

it is either Pass or 4S, I would go with 4S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Why 4S? If he hates hearts, he'll bid spades himself.

I hope he will understand that I have a weak hand with six hearts...after all, that's what 1NT followed by hearts shows. If he has two small hearts and 15 hcp, I'll happily take my chances in hearts. I don't expect partner to pass 4♥ with a singleton. Maybe I should.

You should expect him to pass with a void!
You are showing a hand with no use for S and only H as a decent contract. 4H is NOT a suggestion.

I have to say I'm somewhat in between on this, I don't think what either of you are saying makes complete sense. If partner can play in spades no matter what you have, he will go back to spades, he would have nothing to gain by passing regardless of your precise interpretation of 4♥. If he can't play in spades opposite any hand, then he will pass 4♥ regardless of his heart holding. It's difficult for me to imagine how this could fail to reach the better suit in the most cases possible. It will play in hearts when both suits are bad, but that's probably better anyway (likely a 6-1 instead of a 6-0).

[dcvetkov]

jtfanclub, on May 15 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

Which is more likely? That I have the magic holding with one loser in hearts in spite of my weakness, or that I have a 6 card heart suit that wants to play in hearts if partner has a doubleton?

I am very surprised you treat this heart suit as 1 loser hand? it is not even close, Opposite very likely singleton, it is more like 3 loser hand. It may play a litle better then spades, but I think people bidding 4H are overly optimistic hoping to find good support in dummy.

[skjaeran]

With my regular, 3♠ sets trump and demands a cuebid. So I have an easy 4♥.

Playing more standard methods, I'd pass, though I'm close to raising to 4♠.

[cjames]

Clear 1NT, 3NT now.

[jtfanclub]

dcvetkov, on May 15 2008, 11:40 AM, said:

I am very surprised you treat this heart suit as 1 loser hand? it is not even close, Opposite very likely singleton, it is more like 3 loser hand. It may play a litle better then spades, but I think people bidding 4H are overly optimistic hoping to find good support in dummy.

I am saying that I don't think it should be necessary for hearts to be a one loser hand to bid here.

Also, I rather suspect that partner is far more likely to have a doubleton than a singleton.

[P_Marlowe]

jtfanclub, on May 15 2008, 09:25 AM, said:

The_Hog, on May 15 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

4H is NOT a suggestion.

This is just one of those logic things that escapes me.

I've shown a weak hand- too weak to invite in hearts. Partner has not denied two or three hearts.

Which is more likely? That I have the magic holding with one loser in hearts in spite of my weakness, or that I have a 6 card heart suit that wants to play in hearts if partner has a doubleton? Why play a system where you miss your 6-3 major suit fit, just so you can have a demand bid for a one-in-a-million shot?

You overlooked the fact, that 1NT was forcing,
i.e. the 1NT bid can still contain a strong spade
raise.

If 1NT would be standard 6-9/10, than the cue
bid meaning of 4H is out, but 1NT bidder could
be stronger, ... he may even hold 13-15, if you
happen to play this style.

With regards
Marlowe

[jtfanclub]

Oh, well, if you're going to play 4♥ here as a cue-bid, more power to you.

I'm saying that having it mean "I want to play 4♥ even if you have a heart void and AKQJT9 of spades" is too rare a happenstance to waste the bid on.

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♠    Pass  1NT
 Pass  3♠    Pass  3NT
 Pass  4♣    Dbl   4♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Here's the complete disaster.

[jtfanclub]

That's an...interesting 3♠ bid. You sure you weren't playing Precision?

[babalu1997]

jillybean2, on May 15 2008, 01:07 PM, said:

Here's the complete disaster.

The disaster was, in fact, the 3 spades bid.

After the forcing no trump bid, the opener should down grade his hand, as the bid may contain a misfit.

He then bids bids 2 clubs and responder passes happily there, or as some 2/1 books advocate, responder bids 2 hearts and you play unhappily there lol.

The forcing No trump takes the captaincy. Responder is boss and should be allowed to have his say.

Please note your shortness in hearts and diamonds are really only good IF IF there is a fit.

The 3 sapdes bid should say this:

Look p, i know you are there trying to take control and rain on my parade. But i have news for ya:

I have enough spades to play opposite a void, tough teety.

If my hand cannot say that, i will bid 2 clubs, if p then says 2 sapdes or 3 sapdes,GIVING ME BACK THE CAPTAINCY, i may invite or bid game.

[jdonn]

1♠ 1NT
2♣ 2♥
P

Life is good.

[jillybean]

jdonn, on May 15 2008, 11:51 AM, said:

1♠ 1NT
2♣ 2♥
P

Life is good.

2♥ I like that, life is good but sometimes my auctions arent.

Good to know what I should have done over 3♠ anyway.

[ArtK78]

jdonn, on May 15 2008, 01:51 PM, said:

1♠ 1NT
2♣ 2♥
P

Life is good.

If I held the South hand, I would BART 2♦ over 2♣.

The hand is certainly worth it.

Opener would bid 2♠ (Tx is not good enough for 2♥). Now I have to decide whether to bid 3♥, pass 2♠, or bid 2NT. 2NT is probably right. Opener can bid 3♥ over 2NT or pass.

Bidding 2♥ over 2♣ is a highly pessimistic view. You would bid 2♥ on x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx. Or possibly worse.

On this hand, pessimism was right. 2♥ is certainly the limit of the hand. But you might be able to squeek out a 9th trick in hearts (4 hearts, 3 clubs, a spade and a diamond ruff).

[jillybean]

BART?

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on May 15 2008, 02:55 PM, said:

jdonn, on May 15 2008, 01:51 PM, said:

1♠ 1NT
2♣ 2♥
P

Life is good.

If I held the South hand, I would BART 2♦ over 2♣.

The hand is certainly worth it.

Opener would bid 2♠ (Tx is not good enough for 2♥). Now I have to decide whether to bid 3♥, pass 2♠, or bid 2NT. 2NT is probably right. Opener can bid 3♥ over 2NT or pass.

Bidding 2♥ over 2♣ is a highly pessimistic view. You would bid 2♥ on x Kxxxxx Qxx xxx. Or possibly worse.

On this hand, pessimism was right. 2♥ is certainly the limit of the hand. But you might be able to squeek out a 9th trick in hearts (4 hearts, 3 clubs, a spade and a diamond ruff).

I don't think you understand BART, it has to do with shape not strength. As for your objection, I sometimes open weak two bids on 5 counts and sometimes on 8 counts, so far I am pleased with the results. There are many bids remaining below game is partner wants to know which I have.