[ArtK78]

I don't understand.

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts. Why would it be anything else?

Even if it was intended that 5NT be a quantitative grand slam try, the hand in question is not strong enough. You will be off 5 HCP opposite a maximum 1NT opening bid, and 5 HCP sometimes comes in the form of an ace and a jack. Aces have an annoying habit of being able to take a trick on defense, so bidding a grand is not exactly an odds-on proposition.

I don't object to trying to find a suit fit on this hand, and then trying to determine if the fit and controls merit a suit grand slam. But bidding a no trump grand on a maximum of 35 HCP without a long running suit and with no assurance that the partnership has all of the aces is reckless at best, suicidal at worst.

[TimG]

ArtK78, on May 5 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

I don't understand.

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts. Why would it be anything else?

What kind of responding hand would be concerned about only the high trump honors?

How do you show 4S on the way to 6N?

[TylerE]

Frankly, the more I think about it the more I think GSF is a utterly pointless convention on NT auctions, and that 5NT as pick-a-slam is much more useful. Any sort of modern response structure will give you some way to set trumps and ask for keycards (Kickback, 4♣ keycard G---er, that sort of thing), so there is never anything that GSF will tell you that you can't find out on your own. However, a pick-a-slam bid to make the final spot a mutual decision is a very useful thing that is near impossible to do otherwise.

[neilkaz]

TimG, on May 5 2008, 01:47 PM, said:

ArtK78, on May 5 2008, 01:42 PM, said:

I don't understand.

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts.  Why would it be anything else?

What kind of responding hand would be concerned about only the high trump honors?

How do you show 4S on the way to 6N?

In these modern days of RKCB isn't GSF basically superfluous ? My interpretation of 5NT would've been Quant. looking for a Grand and lacking 4♥!

ie 20-21 HCP balanced and with 4♠.

Pick a slam does make more sense, although we can certainly explore for one over 2♥ with forcing bids.

[Free]

ArtK78, on May 5 2008, 07:42 PM, said:

I don't understand.

To me, the 5NT bid over 2♥ is a grand slam force in hearts. Why would it be anything else?

Even if it was intended that 5NT be a quantitative grand slam try, the hand in question is not strong enough. You will be off 5 HCP opposite a maximum 1NT opening bid, and 5 HCP sometimes comes in the form of an ace and a jack. Aces have an annoying habit of being able to take a trick on defense, so bidding a grand is not exactly an odds-on proposition.

I don't object to trying to find a suit fit on this hand, and then trying to determine if the fit and controls merit a suit grand slam. But bidding a no trump grand on a maximum of 35 HCP without a long running suit and with no assurance that the partnership has all of the aces is reckless at best, suicidal at worst.

5NT is pick a slam. Basically it denies a ♥ fit and shows 4♠. There are enough ways to show a strong hand with ♥ fit so GSF is useless. Quant is useless to, because 4NT is quant.

[han]

If you weren't sure about bids like 5NT and you simply wanted to try finding a 4-4 spade fit you could bid 3m (forcing, showing 4 spades and a 5+ minor). If partner now bids 3S you bid 6S. If not then you bid 6NT. Hard to see what can go wrong with this plan.

[TimG]

han, on May 5 2008, 04:04 PM, said:

If you weren't sure about bids like 5NT and you simply wanted to try finding a 4-4 spade fit you could bid 3m (forcing, showing 4 spades and a 5+ minor). If partner now bids 3S you bid 6S. If not then you bid 6NT. Hard to see what can go wrong with this plan.

Probably a better plan than 5NT. How else can you invite 7NT except by bidding 5NT?

[ArtK78]

Grand Slam Force is not an entirely useless convention. But jumping to 5NT and expecting your partner to figure out what your bid means (GSF, quantitative, pick-a-slam) is certainly frought with danger.

The fact that there are three possible interpretations for the meaning of the 5NT bid set forth in the post being discussed means that the bid should not have been made, IMO.

In any event, rather than argue the merits of one of these methods over another, I would recommend two things:

(1) Don't jump to 5NT unless the meaning is crystal-clear (1NT-5NT and 2NT-5NT are two of the most obvious); and

(2) Don't jump to 5NT as a quantitative raise when you don't have enough HCP to justify the jump - as on the original hand in this thread.

[whereagles]

TylerE, on May 5 2008, 06:57 PM, said:

Frankly, the more I think about it the more I think GSF is a utterly pointless convention on NT auctions

It is close to utterly pointless in general. It's only useful if your control showing sequence went over the steps for RKCB.

[Free]

ArtK78, on May 5 2008, 10:23 PM, said:

(1)  Don't jump to 5NT unless the meaning is crystal-clear (1NT-5NT and 2NT-5NT are two of the most obvious); and

(2)  Don't jump to 5NT as a quantitative raise when you don't have enough HCP to justify the jump - as on the original hand in this thread.

1. What is 2NT-5NT??? "bid 6 with 20hcp and 7 with 21"? The meaning in the auction I gave is crystal clear for me and my partners: pick a slam. With pickup partners I wouldn't do this...

2. 5NT is very seldom quant for me.

[ArcLight]

whereagles, on May 3 2008, 02:33 AM, said:

it's 36 for a grand

Since when? I've not read this anywhere. Maybe if you also have a 5+ card suit to run.

[ArtK78]

Free, on May 6 2008, 03:18 AM, said:

ArtK78, on May 5 2008, 10:23 PM, said:

(1)  Don't jump to 5NT unless the meaning is crystal-clear (1NT-5NT and 2NT-5NT are two of the most obvious); and

(2)  Don't jump to 5NT as a quantitative raise when you don't have enough HCP to justify the jump - as on the original hand in this thread.

1. What is 2NT-5NT??? "bid 6 with 20hcp and 7 with 21"? The meaning in the auction I gave is crystal clear for me and my partners: pick a slam. With pickup partners I wouldn't do this...

2. 5NT is very seldom quant for me.

The absolutely standard meaning of 2NT-5NT is quantitative. Bid 6NT with a minimum and 7NT with a maximum.

This dates back to the days when everyone played 2NT openings as 22-24. If you play 2NT openings (or rebids) as 2 point ranges, then maybe it makes sense for you to adopt some other meaning for 5NT.

Quite frankly, pick-a-slam would not be high on my list, but it is certainly a possibility.

[dbsboy]

I play 1NT-4S as quantitative+

Partner bids 4NT with a minimum, and suits up the line with a max.

I can still bid my suits even if my p shows a min.

Anyone like my idea?

[whereagles]

ArcLight, on May 6 2008, 11:44 PM, said:

whereagles, on May 3 2008, 02:33 AM, said:

it's 36 for a grand

Since when? I've not read this anywhere.

I've read it everywhere!

[1eyedjack]

dbsboy, on May 7 2008, 01:31 AM, said:

I play 1NT-4S as quantitative+

Partner bids 4NT with a minimum, and suits up the line with a max.

I can still bid my suits even if my p shows a min.

Anyone like my idea?

I used to play something like that, and it is playable if you want simple agreements. But playing with a regular partner I would not play this for several reasons.

1) I quite like 1N-4S to play. Alternative routes give the opponents more opportunities to judge and find a save.
2) For delicate slam investigation you may need a bit more information than simply location of a 4-4 fit combined with a min v max limitation, and this in turn requires more bidding space
3) If opener is min and we are not destined for slam, I would still rather be in 3N than 4N. It may be unlikely, but I have known horrendous breaks where 9 tricks is the limit on a hand that initially had slam aspirations
4) You are usually already devoting some low level response such as 2C (or even 2D if playing split-range stayman) for a shape enquiry. Given that opener's response to that shape enquiry is likely to be of relevance also on those hands where responder has a balanced slam try it seems wasteful not double-up on the use of 2C (or whatever) as the first move on such hands.

For the same reasons I am not particularly keen on quantitative 4N (NF) or 5N (F) sequences, although I recognise that concealment of shape from the opponents may be of benefit.

[bergen]

sure, 37 for grand, but it is for NT.
If I find 4-4 fit ♠ and all Key Cards in this hand, I would like to play 7♠.

[Vilgan]

7 could be cold, be on a finesse (as here), or have no real play. I like pushing for 7 when it feels like a good spot, but after a strong 1 NT opener I don't have the tools to find out if partner has a 5 card suit of some sort unless it is a major (usually play 3♣ puppet). Lacking that, I will take either the 6 spades or 6 NT.. whichever feels safer. 6 NT probably will be as giving up a spade trick to JTxx and a finesse that didn't work kind of sucks but I have no clue if that is the correct percentage call.. mostly just my gut feeling from experience.

[kenrexford]

My wife, a relative newbie, would like this deal:

1NT(15-17)-P-4♣(Baron-ish)-P-
4♥(non-minimum with 4+ hearts, not 4+ diamonds)-P-4♠(forcing, 4+ spades, not 4+ hearts)-P-
4NT(Blackwood)-P-5♠(3)-P-
5NT(kings?)-P-6♥(two)-P-
7♠(make Ken play it)-P-P(thank God!!!)-P

When she bids the grand, I guess the finesse right.

A slightly better end, though, would be:

...
4NT(1430)-P-5♣(1/4)-P-
5♥(asking)-P-5♠(no heart honor)-P-
6♠-all pass

Had Responder held the heart Queen, 6♦ would show it and the diamond King, and TADA!!!

I really like 4♣ as Quantitative/Baron here, with 4NT ask RKCB for the last bid suit. 4♣-P-4NT is just clubs, though.