[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Feb 5 2008, 11:30 PM, said:

OK, I get....

1♠  1NT
2♣  3♠

I don't get where 4♠ is coming from after that.

!!!!!!!

You can make a good case for a game try if it goes 1♠ 2♠. Almost any hand with some combination of the working cards we are missing(AS, KQ, QS, AD, KH or QH, QC or xx or x)

Qxx Kxxx xxx Qxx
Qxxx Kxxx xxx xx
Qxx xxxx AKx xxx
K8x xxxx Axxx xx

etc. And you want to not accept a limit raise? What if partner's diamonds here were Axxxx instead, in which case you wouldn't even need the heart king? I still think anyone who claims they wouldn't reach game is either lying to himself, or needs serious work on bidding judgment.

[jtfanclub]

jdonn, on Feb 5 2008, 11:39 PM, said:

I still think anyone who claims they wouldn't reach game is either lying to himself, or needs serious work on bidding judgment.

Hopefully the latter.

I'm looking at your examples, and I still don't get it. Hand 2 is impossible, since the auction denies 4 spades in responder. Hands 1, 3, and 4 all look like they require a 3-2 split in both black suits, which is about 40%, yes? Who wants to bid a 40% game in match points?

That may just me misunderstanding your post, however. Maybe I'll do better in the morning.

[jdonn]

jtfanclub, on Feb 5 2008, 11:52 PM, said:

That may just me misunderstanding your post, however. Maybe I'll do better in the morning.

Yes you are misunderstanding. Those are hands that are a full range below a limit raise. The actual hand from south's perspectivewill be about 4 points better than those.

[han]

It is impossible to have a 5-5 hand that is good enough to open 1S but will pass a limit raise. The playing strength increases a lot once a fit is found.

[han]

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

[jtfanclub]

Hannie, on Feb 6 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

65432
A
AK
Q5432

Even all you IMPs players would pass that, I suspect.

[tomb3113]

In my system:

1♠-1NT
2♠-pass

1♠ is 5+♠ 12-14 or 18-22 unbalanced
1NT is a relay
2♠ is 12-14 with 5♠ and 4♣

Over 2♠ North knows about the double fit but with most of his values in the red suit shoud pass when he knows his p his limited to 14 pts. (and with a nice 14 south would open a strong♣)

[Echognome]

Hannie, on Feb 5 2008, 09:40 PM, said:

It is impossible to have a 5-5 hand that is good enough to open 1S but will pass a limit raise. The playing strength increases a lot once a fit is found.

I do not disagree. If we have to make a go/no go decision based only upon a 3-card limit raise opposite, then we should go.

My question is different. Supposing we have knowledge of the limit raise at the 2-level, is the suggestion then that we should simply blast 4♠ (and this is certainly good in the sense that we have had a very uniformative auction) or should we consult partner with a short- or long-suit try?

I can certainly understand that on this hand with our side source of tricks and good spade intermediates, that a blast may be warranted. But if we alter the hand slightly, should we not consult?

[cherdano]

Don't worry guys, I have seen Han open and sign off over a 3-card limit raise with 5-5 majors in a competitive auction (the defenders didn't find their ruff in the other major...)

[Fluffy]

Hell, with a 5-5 I always bid 4 after a single raise, and someone is passing a limit one?

[han]

Jlall, on Feb 6 2008, 12:04 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Feb 6 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

Hannie, on Feb 6 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

65432
A
AK
Q5432

Even all you IMPs players would pass that, I suspect.

ya this is a good example and it's even a 13 count. How about Jxxxx KQ A Qxxxx just to make sure hannie will agree

Thank you jlall!

Quote

Don't worry guys, I have seen Han open and sign off over a 3-card limit raise with 5-5 majors in a competitive auction (the defenders didn't find their ruff in the other major...) tongue.gif

Yes, I remember that hand of course , but that was (1) a mistake to sign off and (2) probably not an opening hand.

[jtfanclub]

Fluffy, on Feb 6 2008, 04:31 PM, said:

Hell, with a 5-5 I always bid 4 after a single raise, and someone is passing a limit one?

Last time for this thread, I promise.

You can look at jdonn's examples for a single raise, and even though all the points are working, I claim all of them are good enough for game in vulnerable IMPs, maybe good enough for game in NV IMPs, but not good enough for MPs. Add some non-working points and they become 3 card limit raises (at least, all but #2 do).

If you have an 8 card fit, and you clearly can't handle a 4-1 trump split, you'd better be able to almost claim on any 3-2 trump split in MPs. Throw something in like needing a second suit also needing to split 3-2, or a finesse, or them not finding the killer lead, and it's just not worth it any more.

Can I at least get you people to agree that...no, I'm not going to get that either, I can tell. Can I at least get agreement that Fluffy's strategy is a whole lot more likely to work at IMPs than at MPs?

[bhall]

jdonn, on Feb 5 2008, 03:54 PM, said:

I will make a definitive statement. In actual play it would be 100% impossible for any honest player who is advanced or expert to get to any contract but 4♠. If I had to find some auction to reach any other contract, it would be north raising the opening bid to a very heavy 2♠.

In 1972, there were many American pairs that would open this hand 1♣. After that start, you can construct auctions ending in 3N, e.g., 1♣-1♦-1♠-3♣-3♥-3N. An old view was that 5-5 blacks were OK to open 1♣ until they were big enough for the "high reverse:" 1♠-2 Red-3♣. Especially with good ♣ and bad ♠.

While 2/1 was popular, it was not a near-universal choice among advanced players of that era.

[cherdano]

han, on Feb 6 2008, 04:07 PM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 6 2008, 12:04 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Feb 6 2008, 11:17 AM, said:

Hannie, on Feb 6 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

OK, give me an exception that you would open 1S and pass 1S-1NT-2C-3S.

65432
A
AK
Q5432

Even all you IMPs players would pass that, I suspect.

ya this is a good example and it's even a 13 count. How about Jxxxx KQ A Qxxxx just to make sure hannie will agree

Thank you jlall!

He wasn't talking to you!

[han]

Uday killed hannie (at my request).

[skjaeran]

With my regular pard we'd start:

1♣ - 1♠
2♠

1♠ = 6-9 bal/unlimited with ♦
2♠ = 55 11-13 (bad 14)

After that we MIGHT stop short of game (♠ partial) or end up in 4♠, depending on how conservatively we'd evaluate our hands.

We'd absolutely not reach 3NT, that's for sure.