[plaur]

Playing Standard American or SAYC how do you play these auctions? Are they forcing or not? Whats the logic behind it?

a:
1m - 1M
2m - 4m

b:
1m - 1M
3m - 4m

[han]

Both forcing and slam interest for me.

[Echognome]

Hannie, on Nov 9 2007, 04:09 PM, said:

Both forcing and slam interest for me.

Same for me. The logic is that trying to stop on a dime in 4m is usually a bad idea. It's not a very wide range of hands that wants to play in only 4m. The only routes that can ever get me to 4m are ones where we are both limited, attempt to find 3NT and fail (because a suit is wide open). They are pretty rare auctions, but do occur.

It's more important here to be able to look for a major fit and then force in the minor.

[bid_em_up]

plaur, on Nov 9 2007, 06:54 PM, said:

Playing Standard American or SAYC how do you play these auctions? Are they forcing or not? Whats the logic behind it?

a:
1m - 1M
2m - 4m

b:
1m - 1M
3m - 4m

Both would be forcing.

Auction 1) 3m was available for game invite. 4m shows slam interest, otherwise it would just bid 5m.

Auction 2) The jump shift created a g/f auction. 4m should show again slam interest.

[plaur]

Maybe I should clarify. There is no jumpshift.
a:
1♦ 1♠
2♦ 4♦

b:
1♦ 1♠
3♦ 4♦

[jdonn]

Both are forcing.

[SoTired]

So you want 2 ways to invite, but no way to show support and force?

The standard meaning of 4m is forcing. 3m is invitational so that 3N is still available.

[SoTired]

Jlall, on Nov 9 2007, 11:05 PM, said:

SoTired, on Nov 9 2007, 10:48 PM, said:

So you want 2 ways to invite, but no way to show support and force?

It is very easy to show support and force, even if you cannot do it immediately. Bridge is cool that way, you can have multi step sequences!

i think you are toying with me, but i am too naive to know for sure....

right, you can have an extensive set of bids that describe various hands.

but the original question was Standard American and SAYC and this is BIL.

[firmit]

Jlall, on Nov 10 2007, 05:22 AM, said:

4D is forcing in the first one? Why? I would bid 4D with something like Axxxxx x Qxxx xx to say "partner I have a shapely hand with no interest in 3N but very good support for diamonds.

I doubt opps will be silent with you holding this hand.

But I can see what you mean. There are several GF routes with slam-interest left. So why not have some kind of "picture-jump" available. Still, I would say this hand is a bit low for any kind of "picture-jump" - I feel spades should have more potential.

I have a feeling this is kind of an "upstream"-bid - not your everyday problem, thus not so well defined. Anyway, I would say the first sequence is slam-going with no other agreements.

[P_Marlowe]

Forcing.

The logic being, that live is to short to play
just 4m when it is right.

More precise, there was no attemp made to
play 3NT, so the argument, that one needs
to be able to stop in 4m when 3NT is without
chances does not count either.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[skjaeran]

Both sequences are AFAIK defined as forcing in all natural standard systems, though many Norwegians will play the first as a distributional invite (like Justin suggests).

[pclayton]

Have to disagree with Justin here. 4♦ is forcing on both. The 1st sequence is something of a throwback, but its been played a slam suggestion for as long as I can remember.

Why would you need to preempt when both opponents have passed multiple times?

[y66]

re: first sequence

The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge, Sixth Edition (2001) has this entry

Jump rebid by responder - These are jump bids short of game by responder at his second turn. The meanings of such bids vary widely. In traditional Standard American, all such jump bids were considered forcing, whether or not responder rebids his own suit, supports partner's suit, or names a new suit. In the modern style all such secondary jumps are non-forcing, unless they are in a new suit. Some players treat some as forcing and some as non-forcing. Partnership discussion is essential.

In The Bidding Dictionary (1996), Alan Truscott defines this sequence as "game forcing, slam interest, but very rare. A hand with a singleton would splinter, and a balanced hand will almost always probe for 3NT by bidding a new suit that has a stopper." He footnotes this sequence as "A crucial area needing partnership discussion. Traditionally, in North America, all jumps by responder are forcing. The overwhelming modern tendency, following the normal practice in the rest of the world, is to play all jumps by responder as encouraging, inviting game. Individual partnerships may agree on a few exceptions."

Overwhelming modern tendency? Good one Alan!