[mikeh]

Hannie, on Jul 9 2007, 02:57 AM, said:

mikeh, on Jul 8 2007, 06:02 PM, said:

give me xxxx Jxx AJ10 KJxx and I think I'd try 1N.

I'd like to quibble!

I did say that it would be an exceptional hand on which I'd bid 1N rather than 2♠, and 14 cards is exceptional But I didn't really mean it...too many clubs

[Gerben42]

I think 2♠ is a must, and when partner then bids 3♠, pass...

[bid_em_up]

I find these posts amazing.....

[bhall]

I believe that your WC partner assumed that your double showed 4 spades. I agree with any of the other choices that Ken described.

Truth is, third-hand doubles vary so much more than second-hand doubles that it is hard to fault Pass, 3♠, or 4♠ by your hand after the jump to 2♠. If you are "known" to be a conservative doubler in this position, pass is good enough (but I still wouldn't do it), and 3♠ is invitational. If you are "known" to double aggressively here, then 4♠ at IMPs is a standout choice. If your style is unknown to partner, he will tend to act aggressively in order to solve your continuation problems. That seems to be the case here.

[joshs]

My opinion is:
a. Competing to the 2 level does not show extras, it merely shows 4 trumps although I don't mind the style where you might pass with 4 trumps if your x was hopeless. The problem with not competing to 2S on an auction like 1H-x-P-1S-2H-? when you hold 4 trumps is that partner may elect to bid a minor next and then you have to play at the 3 level instead of the 2 level. If you know partner will rebid his 4 small spades on his 6 count, then you can pass on a min, but thats not the way most people bid.
b. competing at the 3 level does show extras, and is INV to game. Of course you have to take some pressure off partner so can bid these Invites sightly lighter in comp than you would normally if you have a good fit, but it still should not be junk.
c. Here partner has shown an INV hand, so you really don't need all that much extra to bid 3S.
d. So the question is do you have any extras? You certainly don't have in high card points but the 4513 shape is promising, especially with the HK probably well placed.

So having said that I think its close between pass and 3S. I would have passed, but thats because I don't x very agressively opposite a passed hand and I expect a passed hand to bid agressively when I do make noise.

[ArtK78]

I may be alone, or almost alone, but I pass over 3D.

I showed my hand (more or less) when I doubled 1D. I have what I am supposed to have.

Partner's 2S bid promises 4 spades and invitational values. Typically, 8-11 HCP with 4 spades. Partner knows what kind of hand I am supposed to have, and he can bid game if he believes his hand is right for game. He knows more about my hand than I know about his hand.

If my pass results in the opponents playing in 3D making, that is unlucky. But since "par" on this hand is getting to exactly 3S, that is a difficult target to reach. If I bid 3S here it is forward going - it is not competitive. Partner may be able to compete to 3S with the right hand (not on this one, however).

If partner had bid 2H instead of 2S, then I would have more to think about.

Here is a question for the panel - seeing both of our hands, what contract do you want to play in? Personally, I think we should let the opps play in 3D.

By the way, partner knows it is IMPs, too.

[jdonn]

Obvious 3♠, bidding 4♠ is an insult to partner IMO. He knows it's imps too, but has the bonus that he can see how good his hand is!

[Codo]

ArtK78, on Jul 10 2007, 07:17 AM, said:

I may be alone, or almost alone, but I pass over 3D.

I showed my hand (more or less) when I doubled 1D. I have what I am supposed to have.

You are not alone, but our northamerican cousins and some of there devote slaves play that 2 Spade shows at least good 9 HCPS or other weird stuff.
In this case, where 2 Spade is quite strong or nearly unlimite, you better bid again.

In the countries with culture in general and espcially with bidding culture, you can relax and pass. Both you and your partner had sung their song, you have nearly nothing to add, pd will make a good descission.

But these cowboys have their roots in the wild wild west and sometimes their bidding shows this.

We had this discussion about the meaning of a 2 Spade as an answer to a X some days ago and did agree to disagree.

[Codo]

Of course you can double with 3 Spades and/or with a doubelton Heart.

But in the books we learned from, you need a reason to do so, so your hand has to be stronger in HCps or other factors.
For me x with the perfect 9 HCPs and 4414 is fine and that double with ~ 13 HCPS and 3424 is nice too.
But pd won´t expect me to double with 9 HCPs and 3424.
So in this areas my hand is still nice but I have not much to add to my story. My pd will play me for a 4414 with around 11 HCps +-2 HCPs or with a little more strength and less shape. I have this hand.

If you tell me that it is common expert practise to lower the values (or the shape)you need to double, this is fine. In this case I need to bid again.
And if I play with an american ( or norwegian, or...) I will bid again, because I learned that they have other standards.

But in France and in the official German system ( WHich is SEF translated) I play partner for exactly 4 spades and 8-10 HCPs. He will decide whether we bid 3 Spade or not. Playing me for a singelton diamond and 4 Spades, he can decide whether we should follow the law by playing 3 Spade or 3 Diamond.

And your example with 1 Spade pass 2 Spade 3 Heart is pointless. IF I have a not shown chicane in opponents suit and an undisclosed 5 card length, I surely have something to add.
But the textbook double is around 11 HCPS and a 4414. Now you have 11 HCPs and 4513 with two nice majors instead of three equal suits.
I don´t think that this is worth bidding again opposite 8-10 hcps with 4 spades.

[jdeegan]

3♠. IMO partner's 2♠ bid was automatic.
Sound bidding wins the board with the actual hand even though the spades were 4-1 and pard had four small. The LOTT suggests 17 or 18 tricks. Justin and his pals bid the same way with no apparent reservations. Whadda ya want for further evidence, a 100 hand simulation?

[ArtK78]

I am one of your North American cousins, but I did learn this game (35 years ago!) from traditional sources - Goren, Sheinwold, Watson, etc.

I understand that players like to double to "get into the auction" with a lot of hands that we "traditionalists" would never dream of doubling. Hence, they overbid when they actually have a "real" takeout double.

I prefer to have a little in reserve for my actions, as my partners usually do most of the overbidding for both of us. I have learned the hard way that if I overbid and partner overbids, then someone, sooner or later, will take advantage of that.

On this hand, everything is friendly enough so that you make 3S (assuming that you can stop at 3S). The original poster could not stop at 3S, but survived nevertheless. But if things are a little more foul (especially if you overreach to 4S) you will go for a number. Good opponents will catch you when you overbid.

The idea that I should bid again because I have what I am supposed to have is losing bridge.

[Fluffy]

I would never double with this hand.

But if I had clubs and hearts reversed I would had doubled, and then pass over 3♦.

[Lingyis]

i voted for 4S, but on second thought, it does seem like an overbid.
i'd never pass 3D tho.