[navit]

How do I respond to my partner's opening bid with 3 card support and 12 Hcp


Pass 1S (partner) Pass ?

Scoring: IMP

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[paulg]

Before we deluge you with answers, a hint about what basic system you are playing would help filter some replies.

Paul

[navit]

Sayc 5 card major Stayman Jacoby 2 nt (learninע) Transfers Michealh'a

[paulg]

I believe the standard SAYC response would be 2♦, promising 10+ points and a 4-card suit. You raise spades later.

Some will consider a 2♣ response instead. They play this as only promising a 3-card suit (if balanced) and will raise spades later. The benefit of this approach is that a 2♦ response always promises a 5-card suit.

Some people play that a 3NT response shows 3-card support in a minimum balanced hand, as here. This is not SAYC but popular in parts.

I would not bid a Jacoby 2NT, preferring to guarantee 4-card support with this bid.

[navit]

I play 2D response shows 10+ and 5 d . Here I only have 4. also I have only 3 card support for spades not 4
If i bid 2 c it also shows 10+ and 5 clubs

[hotShot]

At IMPs I would simply bid 4♠. You partner should have 12+ HCP and 5♠, so your minimum combined holding is 24+ HCP and a 8 card fit. Fast arrival should show a minimum hand with support, about what you have. If your partner is not minimum, you will make it, if your partner happens to have 18+ HCP he can still make a move to slam.

There is no need to help your opps, by telling them more about your distribution and strength.

[TimG]

hotShot, on Jul 7 2007, 06:56 AM, said:

At IMPs I would simply bid 4♠. You partner should have 12+ HCP and 5♠, so your minimum combined holding is 24+ HCP and a 8 card fit. Fast arrival should show a minimum hand with support, about what you have. If your partner is not minimum, you will make it, if your partner happens to have 18+ HCP he can still make a move to slam.

Except he won't because he will expect a weak hand with five-card trump support for your leap to 4♠.

Even though your 2m responses "promise" 5+ cards, you've got to bid one of them and then raise spades at your next opportunity. Opener will not insist upon playing in your minor once the spade fit has been established for a few reasons: 1) spade contracts score better than minor suit contracts; 2) game is lower in the major; and 3) he'll get to declare the hand in spades!

[helene_t]

It's unclear whether the correct SAYC strategy is
- 2♦ followed by 3♠ (forcing) or4♠ when p rebids 2N, because the 2N rebid shows extras (not clear if 2N actually does show extras, the fact that it's forcing implies that it does but taken literally, the SAYC documents says it does not)
- direct 3♠ to avoid the above described problem.

If you play a forcing 1NT response, you start with that, then your next bid may be 2N, 3N, 3♠ and 4♠ depending on how opener's rebid make you reevaluate your hand.

[hotShot]

TimG, on Jul 7 2007, 03:09 PM, said:

hotShot, on Jul 7 2007, 06:56 AM, said:

At IMPs I would simply bid 4♠. You partner should have 12+ HCP and 5♠, so your minimum combined holding is 24+ HCP and a 8 card fit. Fast arrival should show a minimum hand with support, about what you have. If your partner is not minimum, you will make it, if your partner happens to have 18+ HCP he can still make a move to slam.

Except he won't because he will expect a weak hand with five-card trump support for your leap to 4♠.

When you agree to such weak raises (which is a good idea), you have to include an agreement how to handle strong hands.
If there is no agreement (as stated above), you don't play LOTT raises.

[helene_t]

hotShot, on Jul 7 2007, 04:35 PM, said:

When you agree to such weak raises (which is a good idea), you have to include an agreement how to handle strong hands.
If there is no agreement (as stated above), you don't play LOTT raises.

True, but if you don't play Jacoby 2NT (which is actually part of SAYC) or some other forcing raise, you can assume the implicit agreement that you first have to do something forcing (a new suit, or a natural forcing 2NT) and then support p's suit (maybe in the 3rd round if you don't have a forcing way of supporting the suit in 2nd round either).

Otherwise you would have to jump to 5♠ with a hand too strong for a strong raise to 4♠. That would be absurd.

[hrothgar]

There are a number of possible bidding plans with this hand. I suspect that the best choice of action will (often) depend on what you know about your partner's tendencies in bidding. The important thing to recognize is that all of your potentially choices are, to some extent, flawed.

Option 1: Ignore subtlety and just bid 3NT. You have a balanced 12 count. You have 4333 shape, so you don't expect to get any ruffs in hand. You have all three side suits stopped (sort of). If partner promises a (reasonably) sound opening, 3NT could be a great contract.

Option 2: Treat this as a limit raise and bid an immediate 3♠. This hand has eight losers. While its a 12 count, it has miserable shape. 3♠ is a blunt instrument, but such is life.

Option 3: Bid 2♦. You plan to

raise a 2♠ rebid to 3♠
rebid 3♠ over 3♦
jump to 3♠ over 2♥
jump to game over 3♣ or 2NT

2♦ is the most flexible option, however, partner may misjudge your hand if place the ball back in his court.

[P_Marlowe]

3S, the main trouble with 2D followed
by a spade raise is, that this is forcing
and shows slam interest (*) and the hand
is just worth an invitation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: (*) Dont expect that a BPO pickup partner
knows this.

[P_Marlowe]

navit, on Jul 7 2007, 06:45 AM, said:

I play 2D response shows 10+ and 5 d . Here I only have 4. also I have only 3 card support for spades not 4
If i bid 2 c it also shows 10+ and 5 clubs

Hi,

if you want to keep a 3S raise as showing
4 card support:

One possible solution is to play a forcing NT
to mayor suit openings, works fine.

Another possible is to play a 2NT as showing
a inv.+ raise, which can be made on 3 cards,
with min. opener bids 3S and thats it.

There are other solutions out there, but way
to complicate for me, if you don like those solution
give up on the 4 card requirement for 3S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Dont expect pickup partners to play any
sophisticated method, simply bid 3S.

[foo]

navit, on Jul 7 2007, 05:18 AM, said:

How do I respond to my partner's opening bid with 3 card support and 12 Hcp


Pass 1S (partner) Pass ?West,????,IMP
KT3,Q98,K842,A32

2D or 3N, take your pick. Either is flawed.

Give the 4333 shape, which means there will be no ruffs in the short hand, and the scattered values, I vote for 3N.

[han]

There is no right answer, discuss with your partner what you bid with this kind of hand. For me it would be 2C (2D would show 5).

[barmar]

foo, on Jul 8 2007, 11:42 AM, said:

Give the 4333 shape, which means there will be no ruffs in the short hand, and the scattered values, I vote for 3N.

Many people play that 3N shows 13-15 4333. I'm not sure it's a great idea to upgrade this hand to a game force -- the 4333 shape recommends DOWNgrading. People open on shapely 11 counts these days, but opener's shortness will be a detriment in a NT contract.

The SAYC bid for this is 3♠. In SAYC a limit raise only promises 3-card support. The booklet never specifically mentions this, but it can be inferred from other sequences that it does describe.

In 2/1 you can bid a forcing NT followed by 2NT or 3♠, depending on whether you want to invite in NT or ♠.

[Quantumcat]

P_Marlowe, on Jul 8 2007, 07:04 AM, said:

3S, the main trouble with 2D followed
by a spade raise is, that this is forcing
and shows slam interest (*) and the hand
is just worth an invitation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: (*) Dont expect that a BPO pickup partner
knows this.

Why does a change of suit followed by a spade raise show slam invitation? Was what I have been taught wrong?

Which is, that change of suit then 3♠ is invitational with 3 cards, and change of suit then 4♠ a game raise with 3 cards, direct 3♠ is invitational with 4 cards, jacoby 2N is a game raise with 4 cards.

If a change of suit followed by a spade raise is forcing, how do you invite with 3 cards?

[helene_t]

Quantumcat, on Jul 10 2007, 01:44 PM, said:

Why does a change of suit followed by a spade raise show slam invitation? Was what I have been taught wrong?

Which is, that change of suit then 3♠ is invitational with 3 cards, and change of suit then 4♠ a game raise with 3 cards, direct 3♠ is invitational with 4 cards, jacoby 2N is a game raise with 4 cards.

If a change of suit followed by a spade raise is forcing, how do you invite with 3 cards?

1♠-2♦
2♠-3♠*
is not forcing in SAYC AFAIK (I might be wrong). You have appr. 11 points and almost certainly only two spades.

1♠-2♦
2♥-2♠*
same as above.

1♠-2♦
2♥-3♠*
is forcing and shows (at least) 3-card support. Probably slam invite but some might use this with a hand that wants to keep the door open for 3NT.

1♠-2♦
2N-3♠*
same as above. But since 2N is forcing it must logically show extras so this should not be a problem. If you agree with this interpretation you can start with 2♦ with 11 points. But some disagree with me. SAYC seems to be inconsistent and/or unclear in this respect.

1♠-2♦
3♦-3♠*
same as above but even if 3♦ does not show extras (I think it does but again, some will disagree) this should not be a problem since you expect 4♠ to make on minimal values due to the double fit.

[goobers]

Quantumcat, on Jul 10 2007, 06:44 AM, said:

If a change of suit followed by a spade raise is forcing, how do you invite with 3 cards?

Basically 1♠ - 2x - 2y - 2♠ if it is available at that level, Helene said it all, I'm just condensing it.