[firmit]

North
♠ K93
♥ A9543
♦ A
♣ AJ84

South
♠ AQT876
♥ 8
♦ K762
♣ T7

Not hard to see the best contract, but how to reach it with 2/1? Impossible? Try strong 1♣ systems pls explain if relay's.

[Fluffy]

2/1, sayc, sef or almost any 5 card major.

1♥-1♠
2♣-3♠
!!!!
4♣-4♦
4♥-4♠
4NT-5♣
5♦-6♦
6♠

[Fluffy]

Transfer ♠10 to north and I would never get clsoe to reach this slam with natural methods (south won't like the ♦ splinter after bidding 2♠)

[cherdano]

Fluffy, on Jun 23 2007, 12:20 PM, said:

2/1, sayc, sef or almost any 5 card major.

1♥-1♠
2♣-3♠
!!!!
4♣-4♦
4♥-4♠
4NT-5♣
5♦-6♦
6♠

I agree with the general idea but for me 4♣ here would be natural, definitely not agreeing spades. I would bid 4♦ instead. As South, I would bid 4♠ over that, but North should probably drive to slam anyway.

[pclayton]

Its not that easy. Form North's side, ♣xxx can be deadly.

[jdonn]

1♥ 1♠
2♣ 3♠
4♦ 4♥
4NT etc
I have posted before that I really like the treatment of 4♦ here as artificial "really good spade raise". I don't think south can quite commit opposite that, since north could be worse (Kx AKxxx xx AQxx or something is an iffy slam). North can clearly go after 4♥.

I agree with Phil's comment. North has to wait for some kind of encouragement from south before just going to slam, lest he have like xx of hearts and clubs with all side values in diamonds. Also agree with Cherdano that Fluffy's auction is not plausible without a special agreement since 4♣ is natural, but disagree with the rest of his post that north can essentially go right to blackwood after 3♠.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Jun 23 2007, 03:01 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 23 2007, 02:38 PM, said:

1♥ 1♠
2♣ 3♠
4♦ 4♥
4NT etc
I have posted before that I really like the treatment of 4♦ here as artificial "really good spade raise". I don't think south can quite commit opposite that, since north could be worse (Kx AKxxx xx AQxx or something is an iffy slam). North can clearly go after 4♥.

I agree with Phil's comment. North has to wait for some kind of encouragement from south before just going to slam, lest he have like xx of hearts and clubs with all side values in diamonds. Also agree with Cherdano that Fluffy's auction is not plausible without a special agreement since 4♣ is natural, but disagree with the rest of his post that north can essentially go right to blackwood after 3♠.

Why is south worth 4H? He has a minimum in HCP, he has Kxxx of partner's known shortness, and he has no values in partners 2 suits. Sure he's 6-4, but that's the only reason he bid 3S. Really I don't even think he's worth 3S at all, the hand looks like a misfit to him at that point in the auction.

North can just bid 4N over 3S. I don't think I would bid 3S with the south hand though so I would miss this one.

Who cares about hcp, if south had another jack would you feel better? South had a minimum for 3♠ but his hand improves dramatically opposite a fit. He has a great trump suit and great shape for slam. And north hasn't promised diamond shortness the way I play 4♦, I even posted an example hand showing that. In fact if you think north has promised diamond shortness then south is good enough for blackwood over 4♦. I might agree with 4NT by north if there were no bids between 3♠ and 4♠, but it's stupid to do that and find partner with ATxxxx Jx KQJ xx if you could have asked him how he felt instead.

[Edmunte1]

1♥ -- 1♠
2♣(1) -- 2♦ (2)
2♠(3) --2NT(4)
3♣(5) -- 3♠(6)
4♣(7) -- 4♠
5♦(8) -- 6♠

Some possible sequence using Gazilli, this is a difficult slam to reach
(1) natural or 16++ any
(2) positive relay
(3) 5+♥ + 3+♠, 16+
(4) relay
(5) 3-5-1-4 shape
(6) setting trumps, at least mild slam try
(7) cue, min hand
(8) ♦A, probably needed from partner's bidding

[firmit]

I did not find the 4♦ cue-bid after 3♠, but it may have some merit.

Gazilli may handle this deal well. However, no one has yet come up with a 1♣ opening, so I thought I'd provide one myself - using symmetric relay (which I find amazing ).

1[cl](1) - 1[sp]
1N(r) - 2[di]
2[he](r) - 2N(2)
3[cl](r) - 3[he](3)
3[sp](4) - 4[cl](5)
4[di](6) - 4N(7)
5[cl](8) - 5[he](9)
6[sp] 

(.r.) relay asking bid
(1) 16+hp
(2) short ♥, longer ♠ than ♦
(3) 6-1-4-2
(4) controll asking bid
(5) 3 controllers AK or KKK
(6) 1./2. controll asking bid (denial cuebid)
(7) controll in ♠+♦ = A♠+K♦ according to N's hand
(8) 3. controll asking bid
(9) Q♠ not Q♦

I find this amazing - I know this of south's hand according to bidding:
AQxxxx x Kxxx xx

Opener can break the relay anytime below 3NT - he might even transfer to spades and bid rckb. I really like the denial cue-bids, which really are not all that difficult to learn.

[jdonn]

Jlall, on Jun 23 2007, 03:57 PM, said:

Quote

South had a minimum for 3♠ but his hand improves dramatically opposite a fit.

It doesn't really improve that much. Partner already knows you have 6 spades, he can evaluate too.

It's not because of having 6 spades, it's because he is 6-4. That shape upgrades far more with a fit for the 6 card suit then 6331 or 6322 do, regardless of what they were worth before then.

Quote

Quote

He has a great trump suit and great shape for slam.

Why is this shape so great? What is your plan with the diamonds?

To not lose them quickly because they aren't little clubs and hearts, giving me time to either ruff some of them in dummy or set up tricks one of partner's suits. Or am I supposed to pretend I would feel better if one of the diamonds was another small club.

Quote

Quote

And north hasn't promised diamond shortness the way I play 4♦, I even posted an example hand showing that. In fact if you think north has promised diamond shortness then south is good enough for blackwood over 4♦.

Diamond shortness is very likely on this auction. LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL at bidding blackwood over 4D if you know partner has short diamonds. Partner in this hand has NO WASTAGE AT ALL in hearts and the working J8 of clubs and the diamond ace making your king good and slam is still not that good! What if partner's DA was some heart values like QJ or king, good luck with slam. I'm tired of people thinking OMG I HAVE Kxxx opp a stiff, my losers will magically disappear even though we can't really ruff them in dummy since it has too few trumps!

Don't hurt yourself laughing at correct bidding! OMG so slam is only good (and it IS good, not 'not that good' whether you say it or not) because north has a really good hand! If only there was a way for north to say I HAVE A GOOD HAND and south to say I NEED YOU TO HAVE A REALLY GOOD HAND and north to say CHECK. Oh wait, I posted that at the beginning!

Quote

Quote

I might agree with 4NT by north if there were no bids between 3♠ and 4♠, but it's stupid to do that and find partner with ATxxxx Jx KQJ xx if you could have asked him how he felt instead

That is the most ridiculous example of a 3S bid I have ever seen. Even you know that this is not remotely close to something resembling a 3S bid and is probably the most obvious 2N bid ever.

I'll admit that was a really hasty example, but far from the most ridiculous ever. But well exagerated partner, it should keep your faithful forum minions from ever arguing with you out of fear of big dog blasting them. Is AQJxxx Jx Kxx xx better for you?

[firmit]

People - please!

I just wanted to know how to bid this deal naturally - and maybe see some examples - with some thoughts about why, which you could stand by - NOT to start a fight! .... really folks!

[jdonn]

firmit, on Jun 23 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

People - please!

I just wanted to know how to bid this deal naturally - and maybe see some examples - with some thoughts about why, which you could stand by - NOT to start a fight! .... really folks!

lol we are like a thousand miles apart don't hurt yourself breaking anything up. If I was the future best bridge player in the history of the universe I'd act like that too. He's right anyway that I'm pathetic, I mean look how much time at work today I've spent on bbf when there is a perfectly good regional right up the street from me.

[hrothgar]

Here's the (uncontested) MOSCITO auction

1♥ - 1♠
2♣ - 2♦
2N - 3♣
3♥ - 3♠
4♣ - 4♦
4N - 5♣
5♥ - 6♠


1♥ = 4+ Spades, 1♠ = relay
2♣ = 5+ Spades, 4+ Diamonds or any 5440, 2♦ = relay
2N = 5+ Spades, 4 Diamonds, 0-1 Hearts, 3♣ = relay
3♥ = 6=1=4=2 shape, 3♠ = Slam point ask
4♣ = 6 slam points, 4♦ = denial cue bid
4N = 1 or Spade controls, 1 or 2 Diamond controls, no Club controls, 5♣ = DCB
5♥ = 2 Spade controls, 1 Diamond control, 6♠ = to play

(Sorry, Just noticed that North is Dealer. The MOSCITO auction with North as Dealer is very similar, except for the fact that it starts with a strong club opening and a 1♦ GF response. North will relay for shape, South with show a 6=1=4=2 and off you go)

[firmit]

jdonn, on Jun 24 2007, 12:15 AM, said:

firmit, on Jun 23 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

People - please!

I just wanted to know how to bid this deal naturally - and maybe see some examples - with some thoughts about why, which you could stand by - NOT to start a fight! .... really folks!

lol we are like a thousand miles apart don't hurt yourself breaking anything up. If I was the future best bridge player in the history of the universe I'd act like that too. He's right anyway that I'm pathetic, I mean look how much time at work today I've spent on bbf when there is a perfectly good regional right up the street from me.

[mike777]

firmit, on Jun 23 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

People - please!

I just wanted to know how to bid this deal naturally - and maybe see some examples - with some thoughts about why, which you could stand by - NOT to start a fight! .... really folks!

It seems getting to 6s is easy enough. I am not sure what the problem is.

If 6S goes down or there is a better contract I miss it.

1h=1s
2c=3s(invite)
4nt=5d (1-4)
6s=give on grand.

As usual for me, cuebid less, rkc more if possible. (no void or xx in worry side suit).

I grant I expected more for 3S,invite, but I think partner is just stuck.

To repeat getting to 6s seems pretty easy, making it or finding a better contract is harder.

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I have taken a couple of shots at Jlall when I believed that he was off base. He has also often given me a number of good ideas to either test or sometimes even adopt after his explanation of some bidding theory or point of bidding.

His explanation about this hand appears 'spot on' to me. A trump lead is going to remove some ruffing values. That jump to 3S also appears a tad light by my methods.

Are you sure that some of the 'magic bidding' that is posted 'after seeing both hands' is not in action here? Would everyone(that jumped to 3Ss) still jump to 3Ss 'if' the posted hand was a misfit all around?

Anyway, using my Big Club methods with a bunch of toys and 'not' using a relay method:

1C*-1H*-1S*-3C*-3D-4D-4H*-5S*-6S

1C*=16+ any shape
1H*=5Ss or 11+HCP NT
1S=a fit 'if' you have spades
3C*=mini splinter showing 'heart' shortness
3D=cue
4D=cue
4H*=Last Train(slam try with no relation to the heart holding)
5S=slam try with good spades
6S=I have the controls

I might have been influenced by looking at both hands, however, my auction did show good spades(only after I already "knew about 3+ card support" and that partner had already 'shown' slam interest)

After I showed the heart shortness(and partner did not hiccup), we both 'cued' diamonds and partner decided that after that start that he still had 'something' in reserve.

I can't cue bid clubs so I will jump to show good trumps(I played a lot of Blue Team Club and that system often ended in either a natural 4NT contract or 5 of a major)

Jlall ain't afraid to express strong disagreement with posts so I will let him tell it like it is.

'If' I happen to disagree with a post of his, he shouldn't feel too bad that I disagreed with him and typed up a post to express my negative opinion.

Regards,
Robert

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

i am pretty sure, I would miss 6S.
The start is straight forward:

1H - 1S
2C - 3S

but now, I would simply bid 4S as opener, 4S maybe
a lazy bid by opener, but holding a medium opening
hand (control rich) oppossite a inv. hand, I am pretty
sure that I want the auction to finish quickly.

And even if North makes a cue, I would certainly not
cooperate as South.

You may have a chance to find 6S, if you play that 2S
in the auction

1H - 1S
2C - 2S

as forcing or at least as inv., which is one an option, in case
you play WJS, but it is certainly not standard.
Because now opener can raise 3S, and may get a 4D cue
(4D showing the King), but it is unclear if North will make this
bid looking at his single in hearts.

With kind regards
Marlowe