[luckyloser]

just a general question (before giving the actual hand):
suppose you are a regular but not expert partnership, you have agreed to play 4th suit forcing for one round (not necessarily to game). you have not agreed on any exceptions or how high. you have not agreed on any conventions after reverses. just take it from here, i know there are many excellent conventions that cover these cases, but alas you have not agreed on them. especially you do not play any negative convention now (lebensol etc.)

p opens 1c, you respond 1h and p now bids 2d.

what does 2s mean now?
what do other bids mean (2h, 2nt,3c,3d....)?
what would you bid under these assumptions with any of the following hands (if unsure take the bid that is most likely to be understood):

xxx,Axxx,Qxxx,Ax
xxx,KJxx,QJxx,xx
Qxx,Kxxxx,Jxx,xx
xxx,Kxxxx,Dxx,xx
QTxx,Qxxx,Qxx,xx
QJxx,AQxx,Jxx,xx

[Gerben42]

After a reverse, 4th suit is always GF. Other bids are natural when in doubt (and bidding one of the suits already mentioned nonforcing)

[hrothgar]

Gerben42, on May 25 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

After a reverse, 4th suit is always GF. Other bids are natural when in doubt (and bidding one of the suits already mentioned nonforcing)

Not sure if I agree with this...

I've seen a lot of good treatments in which step is a puppet to the next highest suit. For example, after

1♦ - 1♥
2♠

a 2NT bid is a puppet (some prefer a transfer) to 3♣

If you accept this philosophy, consider an auction like

1♣ - 1♠
2♦

In this case, 2♥ is puppet to 2♠

I readily admit that this is far from standard usage, however, I think that this is one of those areas where science is helpful...

[luckyloser]

please remember you are not allowed to introduce new conventions or "treaments". the main question boiles down to

1) if 4th suit forcing for one round was agreed in general, is this still on after a reverse without other agreement? is it now forcing to game?

2) how does this effect other nonjump bids in named suits (2h, 2nt, 3c, 3d)? are they also forcing or not?

3) how does responder show a weak hand (with c, d, h)?

[inquiry]

First, responder should rebid a five card or longer heart suit should he have one (see next two comments however). I think that is forcing after the reverse. This can be a weak bid or a strong bid, as opener has promised a rebid.

Second with support, raise one of partners suits -- with reasonable support and a five card major, you can choose to raise.

With a good six card heart suit you can jump in it. And with a solid seven card suit, responder can jump to 4H (with a broken suit, bid 2H now, and 4H next)

Jump to 3NT with balanced 11-13, jump to 4NT with 14-15 balanced.

Ok, here I think most will agree.. .but now we get down to 2NT and 2♠ bids. First, 2♠ as fourth suit forcing is sort of silly, for a couple of reasons. The first is that after a reverse, opener should bid again anyway. For another, if you have teh fourth suit and values, 3NT/4NT etc become obvious landing zones, so why muck around. And if you don't have long hearts, and you don't have support for one of partners suits, well you will have the fourth suit. So I don not play 2♠ here as fourth suit or as natural. What I kind of like is the cheaper of the fourth suit and 2NT as a bid of misery (weak hand). If 2♠ is available, like here, then 2NT is natural and less than the jump to 3NT. Of course, you have no special agreements, so I would still play 2♠ as weak, unclear where to go, and the raises to 3m instead as forcing. So 2♠ is sort of the anti=4th suit forcing. But if you are not allowed even bridge logic, then 2♠ would be natural and warn of a misfit, bidding is forced only to 2NT, no further.

[luckyloser]

i must admit i am one of those "silly" enough to play 4th suit forcing. however it never came up before in a reverse. for me one thing is most important: employ those bids that partner is most likely to understand. if 4th suit forcing is agreed then it is here too no matter whether this is intelligent or not. i do not think it wise to apply "bridge logic" too often because p most likely will apply it too but only his own logic which may well differ. (i think it quite useful here but i am only a silly mathematician who does not understand logic)

since we have a forcing sequence but no weak conventional bid, all natural minimum bids such as 2h, 2nt, 3c, 3d show a minimum response (6-8 hcps). since a reverse has around 16 hcps minimum the combined hcps may be just below game, therefore all minimum rebids by responder are not forcing. why should they be if you have a forcing conventional bid? and how on earth would you show a minimum response without a convention?

whether 4th suit is now forcing to game is interesting: since it shows more than a minimum, the combined hcps must be enough. i would consider it ftg but not rely on p to see it the same way.

thus i agree with gerbens view (are you a silly mathematician too?)

[inquiry]

The purpose of fourth suit forcing by the responder at his second turn is a waiting move and promises nothing about the suit itself. It seeks more information from the opener, and of course forces opener to bid. I state that using the fourth suit as "fourth suit forcing" after a reverse is silly. The reason is that opener has promised a rebid when he reversed, and is already on his way to describing his hand. What the strong hand needs to know if more info about the weak hand, not the other way around.

Having a zillion signoffs after a reverse (raise either of partners suit, simple rebid of own suit, simple 2NT bid as non-forcing), while seeming easy, is a waste of space. IT is much better if the support is forcing, and "sets trumps" so slam invitation can start forthwith. Playing the 4th suit forcing method as the only forcing bid (well without a jump), you can have such jewel auctions as...

1C - 1H
2D - 2S
3H - ?

How does responder separate between hands with club support versus those with five hearts or six hearts. Opener has raised hearts, but hearts may not be what responder had in mind. The problem is if allow 4C/4D to be cue-bids agreeing hearts, how do you show minor support. If they show minor support and say forget about hearts, how do you make slam tries with hearts short of just bidding it up? There are reasons that lebehnshol and other "weak" responses were invented. The reason is to allow game forcing support to be shown at a low level, to clarify the auction.

[SoTired]

Ben's ideas make sense, but are trumped by the only partnership agreement you have.

I think KISS rules. You have discussed that 4th suit is forcing one round, but you have not discussed 4th suit in relation to reverses. Soo.... 4th suit is 4th suit, therefore forcing and since a reverse is almost game-forcing to begin with, this makes the auction game-forcing.

[hrothgar]

SoTired, on May 25 2007, 07:09 PM, said:

Ben's ideas make sense, but are trumped by the only partnership agreement you have.

I think KISS rules. You have discussed that 4th suit is forcing one round, but you have not discussed 4th suit in relation to reverses. Soo.... 4th suit is 4th suit, therefore forcing and since a reverse is almost game-forcing to begin with, this makes the auction game-forcing.

Let me try...

Playing a conventional 4th suit forcing system after a reverse is idiotic. I don't think that it has any technical merit. I can't imagine any experienced player with a modicum of competence would willingly play such a method.

This isn't the beginner / intermediate lounge. You need to assume that your partner has at least half a clue.

[inquiry]

hrothgar, on May 25 2007, 11:25 AM, said:

SoTired, on May 25 2007, 07:09 PM, said:

Ben's ideas make sense, but are trumped by the only partnership agreement you have.

I think KISS rules. You have discussed that 4th suit is forcing one round, but you have not discussed 4th suit in relation to reverses.  Soo.... 4th suit is 4th suit, therefore  forcing and since a reverse is almost game-forcing to begin with, this makes the auction game-forcing.

Let me try...

Playing a conventional 4th suit forcing system after a reverse is idiotic. I don't think that it has any technical merit. I can't imagine any experienced player with a modicum of competence would willingly play such a method.

This isn't the beginner / intermediate lounge. You need to assume that your partner has at least half a clue.

Well, Richard, as usual is very tactiful in his approach.

I will say this, any agreement is better than no agreement. Playing 4th suit as the only force is at least an agreement. It does a couple of things of course, it removes openers promise of a rebid after a reverse if responder raises. That puts a lot of pressure on the raises.. you ahve to decide... is this game force (then you must bid 4th suit instead of raise), anything else (game invite to total disaster) then goes through the raise.

Is it playable? Yes, I think so. Is it good? No, I don't think so.

[foo]

luckyloser, on May 25 2007, 08:23 AM, said:

just a general question (before giving the actual hand):
suppose you are a regular but not expert partnership, you have agreed to play 4th suit forcing for one round (not necessarily to game). you have not agreed on any exceptions or how high. you have not agreed on any conventions after reverses. just take it from here, i know there are many excellent conventions that cover these cases, but alas you have not agreed on them. especially you do not play any negative convention now (lebensol etc.)

p opens 1c, you respond 1h and p now bids 2d.

what does 2s mean now?
what do other bids mean (2h, 2nt,3c,3d....)?
what would you bid under these assumptions with any of the following hands (if unsure take the bid that is most likely to be understood):

xxx,Axxx,Qxxx,Ax
xxx,KJxx,QJxx,xx
Qxx,Kxxxx,Jxx,xx
xxx,Kxxxx,Dxx,xx
QTxx,Qxxx,Qxx,xx
QJxx,AQxx,Jxx,xx

Playing 4SF and "KISS" as you described, w/o Lebensohl, Ingberman, or the like

1= 1C-1H;2D-2S
a= Changes Us from being forced to 2N or 3suit to GF.
b= It's a probe for 3N. Showing or asking is up to you.

2= The whole schedule after 1C-1H;2D-??
2h= 5+H any strength
2s= "I'd like to play 3N depending on something about S's. How do you feel about it?"
2n= catch all
3c= GF raise
3d= GF raise
Note that all bids past 2N are GF.

I recommend mikeh's excellent write-up on reverses in the BI forum:
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=18177

...and 2nd the suggestion that anyone else has made that you seriously consider adding something like Lebensohl or Ingberman to your reverse structure.

[SoTired]

hrothgar, on May 25 2007, 11:25 AM, said:

SoTired, on May 25 2007, 07:09 PM, said:

Ben's ideas make sense, but are trumped by the only partnership agreement you have.

I think KISS rules. You have discussed that 4th suit is forcing one round, but you have not discussed 4th suit in relation to reverses.  Soo.... 4th suit is 4th suit, therefore  forcing and since a reverse is almost game-forcing to begin with, this makes the auction game-forcing.

Let me try...

Playing a conventional 4th suit forcing system after a reverse is idiotic. I don't think that it has any technical merit. I can't imagine any experienced player with a modicum of competence would willingly play such a method.

This isn't the beginner / intermediate lounge. You need to assume that your partner has at least half a clue.

nonsense. you have no idea what you are talking about. 4th suit after a reverse = weak is a relatively recent improvement.

[hrothgar]

SoTired, on May 25 2007, 10:38 PM, said:

nonsense. you have no idea what you are talking about. 4th suit after a reverse = weak is a relatively recent improvement.

I am not arguing that the 4th suit bid should be treated as weak...

[luckyloser]

i must admit i am very disappointed! not because of the different ideas about bidding after reverses, i expected that. i am disappointed because of the wording of some statements. "silly", "idiotic", "nonsense" is not what i expected in a civilized forum. as one pointed out this is not the beginners lounge... well it does not seem to be the friendly or polite lounge either!
maybe those who have appointed themselves to experts have not yet passed the beginners course of polite behaviour!

[pbleighton]

Quote

well it does not seem to be the friendly or polite lounge either!

You are right, the Forums aren't polite.

They are, after all, inhabited by duplicate bridge players...

Peter

[inquiry]

luckyloser, on May 26 2007, 04:38 AM, said:

i must admit i am very disappointed! not because of the different ideas about bidding after reverses, i expected that. i am disappointed because of the wording of some statements. "silly", "idiotic", "nonsense" is not what i expected in a civilized forum. as one pointed out this is not the beginners lounge... well it does not seem to be the friendly or polite lounge either!
maybe those who have appointed themselves to experts have not yet passed the beginners course of polite behaviour!

Well, I think you are probably much too sensitive. No one called you silly. The treatment you suggest was also suggested by Gerben42, who is a great player. But you asked the following questions....

Quote

please remember you are not allowed to introduce new conventions or "treaments". the main question boiles down to

1) if 4th suit forcing for one round was agreed in general, is this still on after a reverse without other agreement? is it now forcing to game?

2) how does this effect other nonjump bids in named suits (2h, 2nt, 3c, 3d)? are they also forcing or not?

3) how does responder show a weak hand (with c, d, h)?

The general premise of a reverse is that opener promises a rebid after a reverve unless game is reached. Now, assuming you play this standard agreement, the need for 4th suit forcing is, well, should I say it again, like I did the first time? Here is the actual quote.....

Quote

First, 2♠ as fourth suit forcing is sort of silly, for a couple of reasons. The first is that after a reverse, opener should bid again anyway.

While I called using the fourth suit artificial and forcing as "sort of silly" mikeh called it "inefficient" in his excellent article (mikeh's reverse article). . But note, I never called you or Gerben42 or anyone else who played this way "silly", it was the treatment that I consider "sort of silly." Then I tried to explain why. You then asked how if 4th suit is forcing in general, how does tht affect non-jump bids in named suits and if they are forcing or not? Gerben suggest they would not be forcing. I adamently disagree with this approach as opener in my mind has promised a rebid (thus they are forcing) and the best way forward after a reverse is to establish your fit clearly.

I then tried to stick to your requirement of no specific agreements (no fouth suit negative type bid, no lebehnshol, etc), where I suggested that in this case... "But if you are not allowed even bridge logic, then 2♠ would be natural and warn of a misfit, bidding is forced only to 2NT, no further." Why a misfit? Simple, BECAUSE I DID NOT SUPPORT EITHER OF OPENERS TWO SUITS, WHEN GIVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO SO.

In the forum, we are allowed to express our views about bids... not the bidder. The view that a particular treatment is "silly" or "inefficient" or "idiotic" or "nonsense", are all perfectly acceptable way to express a view of that bid or treatment. The useful info, is when the explaination of why the bid (or treatment) is considered that way is also expressed. If someone called the person using the bid "silly or idiotic," that would be a different matter. If you are going to post threads asking for opinions, you had best be prepared for many people to disagree with each other, or the views you yourself then add. We agree on very little here.

As it is now, I am sorry I wasted my time replying to your first post at all. Not that you took offense at my referring to the treatment of 4th suit after a reverse as artificial and forcing as "sort of silly." Your too sensitve in this case, and that doesn't bother me a bit. Nor that you ignored my alternative usage of the fourth suit as natural and warning of misfit based upon "bridge logic", other than disagree with the "bridge logic" is useful because everyone uses alternative bridge logic. Well, then in that case of course, it is not logic if others can reach a different conclusion. It seems to me if partner reverses and you fail to support either of his suits, you don't fit them. And if you bid the fourth suit with no agreement, it is, well, the fourth suit. And the fact that you did not jump 3NT means you lack the values for that bid -- or you have way more than the values for that bid. After this new suit, if opener makes a minimum rebid, like 2NT, or 3 of one of his suits, the auction can die there due to the misfit. Instead, I am sorry I wasted my time becasue of the views you just expressed about what the forum is and how people should behave. This is the last time I will make this mistake with one of your post. As far as I am concerned, you can remain lucky or unlucky as luckyloser, I will not be offering advise or suggestions to you in the future. But in closing, you might want to go back and consider this sentence in an earlier post you made...

Quote

i must admit i am one of those "silly" enough to play 4th suit forcing. however it never came up before in a reverse.

In all the times you have played bridge, however long that it is, the bidding of the 4th suit has never come up in a reverse? Or at least an auction where you could have bid the 4th suit but didn't and the fact that the 4th suit was not bid didn't carry some additional information (too weak to bid it for instance?) I find that hard to believe.

[Gerben42]

I like conventions more than most people but if I would sit down and play with someone I would think in this situation:

* Partner has shown invite or better hand.
* 4th suit forcing shows extras ERGO is GF.
* Bids that look like they are to play are to play.

If this is optimal or not is not relevant.

Now what would I PREFER to play in this context (other than my Fantunes system where this problem does not exist in the first place)?

* Cheapest bid of 4th suit and 2NT is artificial and weak
* Repeating responder's suit is natural and forcing
* Bids higher than said artificial bid are GF

[FrancesHinden]

inquiry has made a lot of statements about what is 'standard' and about bids being 'silly'. Well, we are all entitled to our opinions, and my opinion is that he is wrong.

I don't know what country you are from, but there is a clear distinction between 'American' reverses and 'European' reverses. I don't know what Australasians or Asians do.

In Europe - certainly in England, and Gerben (who has much experience in other European countries) seems to think the same:

1. A reverse at the 2-level after a 1-level response does not promise a rebid. Responder's minimum call can be passed.

2. Therefore, fourth-suit-forcing is a useful tool for responder to show extra values without having to jump around.

This makes all your questions easy to answer in a very natural base:

1C - 1H - 2D -

i) 2H natural, 5+ hearts, non-forcing
ii) 2S is fourth suit forcing. Because opener has already shown 16+ HCP (or equivalent), if responder is also showing extra values you are now forced to game.
iii) 2NT is natural, non-forcing
iv) 3C is natural (may be simple preference), non-forcing
v) 3D is natural, non-forcing
vi) 3H shows a good suit and is game forcing
vii) 3S is probably a splinter for diamonds
viii) 3NT is to play in 3NT
ix) 4C shows good clubs and a slam try (not interested in any other suit)
x) 4D shows good diamonds and a slam try, you will need to have 5+ diamonds because opener sometimes invents a 2D reverse.
xi) 4H shows a desire to play in 4H

...and so forth

Now, this set of agreements is not played by many regular expert partnerships, who tend to prefer some form of science. But it's played by about 70% of regular club players in my country. Last week I played in an invitational event with someone I have only played with a couple of times, who has played for her country in many international events (and won some of them), and we would have been playing these agreements over reverses because we didn't discuss anything else.

All of that is a much longer way of saying what Gerben said in three lines.

Quote

Playing a conventional 4th suit forcing system after a reverse is idiotic. I don't think that it has any technical merit. I can't imagine any experienced player with a modicum of competence would willingly play such a method.

I will assume this is a deficit in your imagination rather than a lack of my (and my partner's) competence.

Many people play 4th suit forcing after a reverse. For example, I do in my regular partnerships. We play 1D - 1S - 2H - 3C as FSF, being a random game force without a better call to make. In the given auction we don't play 2S as FSF, but that isn't really the point.

There is certainly some benefit in playing 2S as 4SF in the given acution. You have a 4432 distribution and the acution starts 1C - 1H - 2D. You have neither club support nor diamond support, nor do you have a long heart suit to rebid. If you have a weakish hand with a spade stop you can bid 2NT, but if you have 10+ HCP with or without a spade stop, you don't want to jump to 3NT and find a suit is better, nor to you want to have to jump to 4NT on a stronger balanced hand.

[FrancesHinden]

1C - 1H - 2D -


xxx,Axxx,Qxxx,Ax
2S, fourth suit forcing.


xxx,KJxx,QJxx,xx
3D, natural and weak


Qxx,Kxxxx,Jxx,xx
2H, natural and weak

xxx,Kxxxx,Dxx,xx
2H, natural and weak

QTxx,Qxxx,Qxx,xx
2NT, natural and weak

QJxx,AQxx,Jxx,xx
3NT, natural and less weak

[luckyloser]

frances and gerben thank you for your competent analysis. i agree from first to last letter! it may well be that there is a difference between european and american reverses. i am austrian (those who have mountains but lack kangaroos)

i strongly object to calling other peoples methods "idiotic" and even more to assume those playing such methods to be incompetent. are all european players incompetent? someone told us here that this was oversensitive and such words were ok as long as only playing such methods was called idiotic and not people themselves. here again opinions differ.

Those who shout loudest are usually wrong