[barmar]

This hand seems like a particularly yucky 12-count. Most 4333 12-counts have 8 losers, this one has 9.

[skjaeran]

Opening any 12 point hands and most 11 counts, this is a clear opening to me. Systemically I'd open 1♣, not 1♦. But that's an aside.

I'd make a support double. Failing that, I'd rebid 2♥ over north's double.

[awm]

I'd pass the south hand. I've found that 4333 hands are really pretty bad in terms of playing strength. In general I pass most 4333 12-counts, and open most 12-counts with other patterns (except if holding Qx or Jx in my doubleton). There are exceptions for hands with really nice spots like Frances' example (which I would open of course).

I agree with others that 2♥ is a standout bid over the double of 2♣.

[mike777]

awm, on Apr 23 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

I'd pass the south hand. I've found that 4333 hands are really pretty bad in terms of playing strength. In general I pass most 4333 12-counts, and open most 12-counts with other patterns (except if holding Qx or Jx in my doubleton). There are exceptions for hands with really nice spots like Frances' example (which I would open of course).

I agree with others that 2♥ is a standout bid over the double of 2♣.

I think all of this is fine but in my continuing posts it seems clear there is no "standard expert" in opening hands despite such strong denials from many. Opening hand strength is greatly varied around the world as well as the USA. Just see threads such as this one.

[awm]

Of course there is no "standard" and it's all system dependent. You could agree to open most balanced 11s, or pass most balanced 12s, and as long as partner knows what to expect it doesn't really effect things much. Occasionally there will be hands where one style or the other is superior.

But I think it's fairly accepted that this is a lousy hand:

QJ2
QJ2
QJ32
QJ2

whereas this is a much better hand:

65
AQT8
AJT9
542

The second hand is probably at least a point better than the first. I am sure you can find people who would open both hands, or people who would pass both hands. But I doubt you can find many good players who would open the first hand and pass the second. All of 4333 shape, bad spots, and queens+jacks rather than aces+kings downgrade the first hand.

The fact that, for me, the example hand that started this thread is a bit short of opening, whereas for others (like Justin) it's an opening bid is just a matter of style and mostly misses the point. We both acknowledge that "this is a bad twelve-count" and just differ on whether we open bad twelves.

[han]

I open some balanced 11 counts and would pass this 12-count. Make it just a bit better and I'd open.