[Badmonster]

I was reading a book from 1970 and while it's not a book on bidding it references the auction 1m-p-2nt. In 1970 2nt was 13-15. Now it is 10-12. I thought that was so strange. Not because I think one range or the other is superior, but because lately it seems the more points you have the more room you'd like to leave. And since that is the trend isn't it odd that 2nt has gone in the opposite direction?

[cherdano]

You have a point. Actually, I hear there is a trend towards forcing 2N bids.

However, one reason for the change the other way is that inverted minors substantially reduces the need for a SAYC-like forcing 1m-2N bid, which is often made with support for opener's minor.

There are similar back-and-forth trends for other sequences. 1C-1H-1S-3H was played as forcing in the fifties I believe. After decades of being downgraded to being invitational, I think it is becoming more common again to play it as forcing, in the context of either XYZ or constructive weak jump shifts.

Arend

[helene_t]

Playing a strong 1NT system, the 11 point 2NT is silly. Playing a weak 1NT, I suppose it's silly as well but I haven't thought much about it.

A natural forcing 2NT is useful in many systems with natural responses. I would not play it in a relay system, though.

[ArcLight]

1m - 2NT

I think the ranges might be slightly different in SA vs 2/1.
In SA is 2NT 13-15 or is it 10+ - 12.
In 2/1 its 10+ - 12.
In 2/1 a 1NT response would show 6-10 or 8-10 depending on what the minor is.
So what do you do with 11 or 12, etc? You need to cover those ranges.
With more, say 13, you can make a 2/1

This is not available in SA, hence the difference in ranges


>Playing a strong 1NT system, the 11 point 2NT is silly. Playing a weak 1NT, I suppose it's silly as well but I haven't thought much about it.

Why? Pard opens 1m, you have a balanced 11,12 HCP, what do you bid?
What does a Strong NT have to do with it?
They may have a 15-17 HCP hand and open a minor with 2 doubletons in teh majors. 2=2=5=4 for example. OR a 4=4=4=1 hand. Something unsuitable for opening 1NT.

[inquiry]

1m-Pass-2NT is sort of a commitial bid if it is "invitational". Opener has to decide, do we have "game" or should we stop short of game and play exactly 2NT or perhaps 3 of my minor. That is to say, opener is captain, and his next bid decides the fate of the hand (game, part-score, or try for slam).

As such, 1m-2NT can not be very wide range. A 13-15 hcp range would be game force (because there also has to be a fit if partner opened a minimum shapely hand). Played as invitational, I would suggest you never use a 3 point range. The difference between 10 and 12 points is huge when deciding to go or not go. Also a "fifth" card in a minor as a source of tricks is huge, which opener can not evaluate, so I would not play it as 10-12 as suggested in the original post. Also the range needs to be geared towards your opening style.

I tend to open very light. So when I play 1m-2NT as invitational, I play it stronger than most. I would tag it as 11 hcp with a five card minor or 12 hcp without one. That is it. With such a narrowly defined responder hand, opener is well placed to make a decision. I also remove some hands from this mix by having a "limit-raise" of the opened minor available when the five card support is in his suit.

Because "hitting" the precise spot with 2NT is a rather narrow target (number of hands that fit the bill... no four card major, no singleton, hand unsuited for inverted raise and invite should you play that, or unsuited for lilmited minor suit raise, and hand with the desired hcp range), 2NT might be more effectively used as something else. General GF, preempt in opened suit, lebehnshol so responder can show a preemptive jump shift so that jump shifts can be "weak", lebehnshol so responder can show a strong jumpshift, so jump shifts can be weak, or whatever else your fertile mind can think of.

[pclayton]

I like the term evolutionary anomaly LOL.

I agree with Helene; I don't really care for a 10-12 range after 1 minor. I don't think its playable. Playing a 12-14 NT, I run the risk of wrong siding the NT anyway.

There's a minor tweak I can make to my system to accomplish this, but I've been bombarding my pard with system changes that I'll hold off on this:

1 minor - 2N = a very weak preemptive raise

1 minor - 2♠ = either a mixed raise or balanced 10-12. Opener can retreat with the weak distributional hand, or bid 2N to ask with a balanced 15-17.

1 minor - 3 minor = a balanced 13-15. Opener can bid shortness below 3N (paging Ken Rexford, paging Ken Rexford )

1 minor - 3N = preemptive raise to 4 minor, but Opener can pass with a balanced 18-19.

Hehe, I kind of like this

[helene_t]

ArcLight, on Apr 18 2007, 02:07 PM, said:

>Playing a strong 1NT system, the 11 point 2NT is silly. Playing a weak 1NT, I suppose it's silly as well but I haven't thought much about it.

Why? Pard opens 1m, you have a balanced 11,12 HCP, what do you bid?
What does a Strong NT have to do with it?

With 4-card support I can use inverted minors if available. Otherwise bid the other minor. You'll have to bid a fake minor suit with slightly stronger hands anyway.

Playing a weak 1NT, maybe you could play it as 10+, forcing. That would keep the minor suit responses "clean". Donno if it's playable.

[mr1303]

I must admit, I do prefer all of my pre-empts to be in the denomination I want to pre-empt in.

No pointing in pre-empting if you don't put maximum pressure on there. This gives the next hand too much opportunity if 2NT is essentially forcing. Compare:

1D P 3D ?

with

1D P 2NT P
3D P P ?

4th hand can now differentiate between the two sequences, and can also have a 3D cue available, maybe to show a major 2 suiter or similar, whereas in the first sequence he'd have to try at the 4 level.

[barmar]

Badmonster asks why 2NT seems to have gone in the opposite way than most other bidding has -- keeping the bidding lower with stronger hands.

This is a good idea when you've identified a fit -- you want extra space to explore for slam. Or if you're still looking for a fit, you need as much room as possible.

But it's less necessary when showing a balanced hand. With NT bids, it's still pretty common to bid higher with more.

The other problem with the old game forcing 1m-2NT was that there was no good way to an invitational NT. You had to bid a new suit first, which sometimes meant that you had to bid a 3-card suit, thus misdescribing your hand.

[EricK]

How else do you show the invitational hand over a 1♦ opening? Maybe 2♣. But after 1♦ 2♣ what does opener do with a balanced 14 point hand?

[helene_t]

EricK, on Apr 22 2007, 11:08 AM, said:

How else do you show the invitational hand over a 1♦ opening? Maybe 2♣. But after 1♦ 2♣ what does opener do with a balanced 14 point hand?

Yes, you're right. I was mixing it up with 1M-2N. One day I'll learn to think before I post. Or maybe not.

An alternative treatment it to let opener rebid 2♦ on all minimum hands, even with a 3-card (it helps to open 1♣ freely on a doubleton so that 1♦ suggests 5+, as some do over here).

Also, I used to play a 3N rebid as 14 points, then you make a fake reverse with 18-19 (unless, maybe, if partner is a passed hand). This is not a common treatment, but it's quite common after inverted minors so why not.

In conclusion, a natural non-forcing 2N over 1♦ keeps your system more natural, if the range of balanced openers below 1NT is too wide to put in a non-forcing 2N rebid.