[Cascade]

As long as your system is sound I do not believe there is a lot to choose from between alternative systems. There will always be swings and round-abouts to win and lose on. Further it may be that some method is superior to another method but we simply do not have the tools to measure this superiority accurately and the difference is probably minute any way.

jdonn highlighted some competitive auctions where the weak NTers are at a disadvantage but I am sure that there are similar situations where the strong NTers are behind. Having almost exclusively played a weak NT - although I now often play a variable NT - i have always found it difficult to contemplate some competitive auctions in a strong NT system when opener has a minimum balanced hand and the opponent makes a jump overcall and partner makes a negative double or some other forcing bid and opener has no additional feature to show. In contrast on the same auction (although it would be a different hand) the weak NTer always has either extra distribution or extra strength or alternatively on the same hand the weak NTer has shown for certain the nature of his hand with a 1NT opening and responder can 'force' with his eyes wide open. And sometimes the overcaller cannot even create a problem e.g. compare

Strong NT: 1♦ (2♠) X?

Weak NT: 1NT (Pass) ?

The weak 2♠ bidder may not even be able to overcall since he is restricted by style and the prospect that his side has game to make his overcalls more constructive.

Jan has mentioned another area where the weak NT is better than a strong NT - slam bidding or even choice of game auctions where we belong in 5minor. Since slam is more likely in response to a strong NT it is better at least in theory that those hands are opened at a lower level.

None of this suggests that a weak NT is better than a strong NT just that there are advantages on some hands. Most or at least many of the world's best players play a strong NT so there must be something to it.

For me it is just a matter of comfort and familiarity - I like playing a weak NT and for the main part it works well for me even if occasionally I have to give up a few hundreds in overtricks or miss our major suit (or even minor suit) part-score.

Curiously I detest support doubles and from reading others opinions perhaps this is because I have never seen how they work with a weak NT. Although we also do not use a double by opener to show the strong NT hand - we use it simply as takeout showing either extra strength or support for the other suits (including partner's).

[helene_t]

Theoretically, I think weak notrump should be better. The negative inference that opener cannot have a 12-14 balanced hand must be more useful to partner than that he can't have a 15-17 balanced.

But it seems difficult to design a system that takes full advantage of this. I'm not sure if this is because most mainstream bidding theory has evolved in 15-17 cultures, or whether it's because of more inherent complexity in 12-14 systems. Maybe a combination of both.

It's well-known that responder can make negative doubles as well as forcing two-level freebids in a suit below opener's suit more freely in a weak-notrump context. But the constructive bidding causes problems.

One such problem is opener's rebid with some awkward 5431-pattern and minimal values. Rebiding 1NT with a singleton in partner's suit would show 15-17 points. Supporting partner's suit on a 3-card would suggest extras in terms of either HCPs or distribution and therefore encourage partner to bid on when he shouldn't.

Another problem relates to 2-over-1 auctions, especially if opener's suit does not promise 5. You cannot respond 1NT with 10 points if you also do it with 6, since opener will be fixed with a balanced 15 points. This means that a lot of sequences starting with a 2/1 response will not be forcing although you would like them to be so.

I have a vague feeling that some radical system changes are necesary to deal with those problems effectively, as well as to deal with sandwhich overcalls. Playing the 1NT rebid as 15-17 balanced may not be the best use of that bid. A two-way 1NT rebid, allowing responder to enquire with a non-forcing relay of 2m if he has invitational values opposite the 15-17 balanced might help.

Then there's the question of how to handle 3rd and 4th seat openings. 12-14 does not make much sense here as it is meant constructively opposite a maximum of 11 by partner only if you have 14. 14-16 would be more logical. But you would like sometimes to open with less than that just to compete, to suggest a lead or to keep the board alive when you have spades length. So you open in a suit with 12-13 balanced. This means that you play a different system in 3rd/4th hand.

If I were to design a weak-notrump based system myself, I would look into a relay response that requires a 10+ HCPs and some tolerance for any pattern opener might show with his rebid.

[whereagles]

Cascade, on Apr 18 2007, 04:59 AM, said:

Curiously I detest support doubles and from reading others opinions perhaps this is because I have never seen how they work with a weak NT.

Support dbls + weak NT do not mix well. That's a rather obvious fact, regardless of what some (like Andy Stark) say.

[blackshoe]

Heh. Ron Klinger, in "The Power System", said "all notrump ranges are wrong," and then proceeded to give us 17-20. George Rosenkranz tells us "how to survive without a strong notrump, or indeed any notrump at all". Danny Kleinman wrote a whole book on the faults with just about any notrump range you can think of - and gives a number of fairly complicated possible solutions.

You pays your money, and you takes your chances, I guess.

[glen]

blackshoe, on Apr 18 2007, 08:54 AM, said:

Ron Klinger, in "The Power System", said "all notrump ranges are wrong," and then proceeded to give us 17-20....

Is this the same Ron Klinger who was playing this cc in 2005?

Ecats: 2005 Australia Klinger-Neill pdf

"1NT Openings: 15-17 (maybe 14, 5 card suit). Maybe 5/6M, 6m, 5422."

[mycroft]

Cascade:

2C Scramble after 1NT-X:

- Apart from 2C, all bids are To Play.
- Apart from XX (forcing through 2S or 1NTxx), all bids are NF.
- This means that 1NT-X-2C!-P gets passed, and if you end up playing your 2-1 fit undoubled, so be it (an interesting score was 2C-4, -400 into the room's 3NT=, -400)
- if 2C gets doubled, Opener is deemed to have 3 clubs, responder 4. If either has fewer, pull to cheapest 4-card suit. This repeats until they bid, or we find a reasonable fit, or we're playing undoubled.

Yes, it has holes. They all do. But it's the biggest "bang for the preemptive buck" rescue system I've seen. Punish when it's right, get to a safe spot when you can, play the 1NTx gamble, and only give 'em two kicks at the cat when you actually *want* them to bid.

Michael.