[sceptic]

[FONT=Courier]

Scoring: IMP

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east opens 2NT in 4th seat

The bidding went 2NT 3 spades from me 3NT which I passed as I had not agreed to minor suit sy=tayman with my p, I passed 3NT as I would hate to be left in 4 spades, we had not discussed MSS so in reality it was my fault.

But, I am still interested in how to proceed for the slam as I think it is a good slam to be in 50/50 with two fineses

comments welcomed (except the obvious one about being an idiot for not agreeing a system with your p first and then quitting half way through a bid or making a bid with no agreement )

[kenrexford]

Not sure, but a "better" technique:

3S is a relay to 3NT. You then can bid your minor as a slam try OR four of your short major to show a minor two-suiter and slam interest. This works tremendously on this hand, of course.

For the timid, you could bid 3S, planning to pass 3NT. That may sound like a lousy slam try, as partner never found out why you were interested.

However, IMO, 3S should ask Opener to participate in this bidding. With interest himself, opposite one or more slammish hand patterns, he should "super-accept" the 3S call, according toa partnership agreement. An easy one is for 4C to super-accept, with the rebids by responder being the same except 4NT to show a one-suiter with clubs. Sexier super-acceptances are plausible and should be discussed and agreed.

[inquiry]

I think this is worth a second try. Over 3NT, you should bid 4♠ showing shortness...

Your partner was also somewhat conservative he has A, AK in the majors, likely covering any losers you have in those suits. He HAS Four card diamond support to three honors, and Ax in the other minor. His hand is golden. Over 4♠ by you (after 3NT) he can't possible stop short of slam. Over 3♠ by you showing both minors, he should make a slam try with his golden hand.

[barmar]

While it's not a bad slam, it looks like a really frustrating one. It's true that it's just on one finesse, but both minors have two-way finesses, and diamonds also requires guessing whether to finesse or drop. And you don't have enough cards in the other two suits to get a decent count of the hand to help you decide how to play the minors.

[han]

I agree with Ben, both players could have done more. I think I'd rather be in 5D then in 3NT.


Even though I usually don't get them right, I find 2-way finesses less frustrating then one-way finesses. It more or less guarantees that 6D can be made, you just need to find the right line. I'm pretty sure that I would get it wrong as the cards lie, when south shows up with 3 diamonds I'd finesse in clubs through north.

[mindofmike]

I was the original poster's partner on this hand.

This was a new partnership. We had not discussed much of anything beforehand, simply agreeing standard bidding (which I took to mean SAYC), standard carding, and 1430.

The sequence 2NT-3S is not defined in SAYC. I personally prefer it to mean the minor-suit slam try that partner intended it to mean, but wasn't sure I could safely assume that. Knowing that the convention was in play, I probably would have responded 4D to indicate a minimum (2NT was 20-21) with a diamond fit. Then partner can possibly cuebid 4S with his singleton (I'll be able to infer the shortness from my hand), and I can either bid 4NT to check for whether the ace is there, or just bid 6D myself.

Since I wasn't sure we were using MSS, 3NT was intended to show a balanced minimum and invite partner to make the next move. As it happened, it was passed (not necessarily a bad move). I received a spade lead (won in hand), cashed the Kd, ran the Jd to the queen and ace, cashed three more diamonds (discarding a heart as North pitched two clubs while South threw spades). Then I crossed to the Ac and, when North showed out, finessed South for the Qc - making seven. (I was intending to play for the drop in diamonds anyway, but figured I'd give myself an extra chance if West covered. Once North tossed two clubs, I figured on a drop again, but changed my mind when he showed out.) +720 was good for 76.79% of the matchpoints; only three out of 29 pairs bid and made slam.

In the absence of agreements to cover West's hand type, I don't see how to get to slam. Since SAYC doesn't include MSS, how can it be bid?

Mike

[han]

mindofmike, on Feb 6 2006, 12:39 PM, said:

I was the original poster's partner on this hand.

This was a new partnership. We had not discussed much of anything beforehand, simply agreeing standard bidding (which I took to mean SAYC), standard carding, and 1430.

The sequence 2NT-3S is not defined in SAYC. I personally prefer it to mean the minor-suit slam try that partner intended it to mean, but wasn't sure I could safely assume that. Knowing that the convention was in play, I probably would have responded 4D to indicate a minimum (2NT was 20-21) with a diamond fit. Then partner can possibly cuebid 4S with his singleton (I'll be able to infer the shortness from my hand), and I can either bid 4NT to check for whether the ace is there, or just bid 6D myself.

Since I wasn't sure we were using MSS, 3NT was intended to show a balanced minimum and invite partner to make the next move. As it happened, it was passed (not necessarily a bad move). I received a spade lead (won in hand), cashed the Kd, ran the Jd to the queen and ace, cashed three more diamonds (discarding a heart as North pitched two clubs while South threw spades). Then I crossed to the Ac and, when North showed out, finessed South for the Qc - making seven. (I was intending to play for the drop in diamonds anyway, but figured I'd give myself an extra chance if West covered. Once North tossed two clubs, I figured on a drop again, but changed my mind when he showed out.) +720 was good for 76.79% of the matchpoints; only three out of 29 pairs bid and made slam.

In the absence of agreements to cover West's hand type, I don't see how to get to slam. Since SAYC doesn't include MSS, how can it be bid?

Mike

Bridge without agreements is too tough. Without any agreements regarding minor suited hands over 2NT, you cannot expect to bid these slams accurately. So instead of asking how to bid it without MSS, I suggest that the two of you discuss MSS, not only the initial bid, but also the follow-ups (see Ben's post). It is a fairly standard convention, you would do well to get comfortable with it.

[kenrexford]

Lacking defintion to 3S (new partnership), I would assume that partner had some hand with slam interest and some minor holding. I disagree that this is a balanced minimum. The controls are plethora and either minor offers a great fit.

Thus, lacking assurance as to what is going on, I would suggest that 5NT works in a practical sense. Whatever partner has, you fit well. So, make him decide what to declare. Worst case, you declare 6C, which ain't that bad.

[paulg]

It's unfortunate that SAYC does not define 3♠ so I think that it is important to avoid later bids in the auction that can be misunderstood by your partner.

Pass achieved that objective but probably better is to follow up with 4♦ and then try to bid 5♣. Most partners would assume that you had this hand.

The problem with 4♠ (shortness) is that bidding spades twice is sounding more natural. And partner may start to doubt what you play 3♠ as -- for example, a common meaning in the UK is 5 spades and 4 hearts, so this sequence could show 6-4.

p

[Wackojack]

Hi Wayne,

with a regular f2f partner we play over 2NT:

3♣ = puppet (5-card stayman)
5+ in major use red suit transfers, except 3NT shows 5♠+4♥.
To explore minors for slam:
6 carder: bid 4m
5-carder: bid 3♣ then 4m over any response
5-4: bid 3♠ transfer to 3NT, then bid 5 card minor
5-5: bid 3♠ trasfer to 3NT, then bid singleton major

This may not be the most efficient but it is not too difficult to remember.

With the 5-5 minor west hand shown, my guess is opposite a random 2NT opening, slam would be good a little less than 50% of the time. If the bidding goes:
2nt-3s
3nt-4s
then if opener who started with KQJx, AJx, Kxx, AQx would have to sign off in 5c. However if the singleton spade makes opener's hand look good (east's actual hand looks reasonable to me) and tries 4nt for key cards having one ace and 4-card support for clubs to the king. Then you would need to be playing 1430 not 0314 otherwise you are too high.

I dont know what you do with 5-5 in the minors and say 10HCP with no ace. It seems a complete guess.

[EricK]

If you have no agreements with partner you are pretty much screwed on this hand. Just raise to 3NT.

If you have agreed that 3♠ shows both minors and is slam interested (as I sometimes play) then obviously this hand is perfect for 3♠. It is not, IMO, good enough to bid again if partner signs off in 3NT.

Obviously your partner did not think 3♠ showed both minors (or was a poor judge of a bridge hand) as his hand looks very good for a high level ♦ contract.

I haven't analysed the hand properly but isn't the best play to eliminate the major suits and then exit with the third round of ♦, rather than try to guess the ♣?

Eric