[MickyB]

mike777, on Oct 28 2005, 09:24 PM, said:

MickyB, on Oct 28 2005, 03:17 PM, said:

mikeh, on Oct 28 2005, 08:58 PM, said:

So while I am often very strongly of the view that one approach is better than another (don't get me going on the choice of opening on 4=4 minor hands )

Wouldn't dream of it. Anyway, it is obvious to open 1♣.

1D has been drilled into me.

But I do not want to upset the Canuks.

Think Mike is actually a 1♦ bidder, I should have added a wink! Playing SAYC or fairly normal 2/1, I agree with that.

I agree with Richard about the benefits of putting the opps to the guess regarding balancing. I have enough room to differentiate between 3 and 4 card raises in a system I'm using atm, but this info is useful for the opps too.

[cherdano]

I like to raise on three, although maybe not as consistent as Ben.

I think the biggest draw-back is for responders hand evaluation after 1m-1M-2M. If the raise promises 4 cards and responder has 5 trumps with modest extras, then it is pretty safe to invite -- if opener has 3 cards, you can get too high. If opener can have 3, and responder has 4, inviting is even more dangerous -- you force youself to play the 4-3 fit at the 3-level, so you may as well force to game (3NT).

Arend

[mike777]

cherdano, on Oct 28 2005, 07:08 PM, said:

I like to raise on three, although maybe not as consistent as Ben.

I think the biggest draw-back is for responders hand evaluation after 1m-1M-2M. If the raise promises 4 cards and responder has 5 trumps with modest extras, then it is pretty safe to invite -- if opener has 3 cards, you can get too high. If opener can have 3, and responder has 4, inviting is even more dangerous -- you force youself to play the 4-3 fit at the 3-level, so you may as well force to game (3NT).

Arend

Well as I mentioned in my post but almost no one but Richard discussed....the opp bid and they bid alot...that is the big issue. Do we compete to the 3 level and if so in what suit at MP? Our minor fit our or major fit. The problem is not silent opp but busy opp.

[Winstonm]

Whether or not to raise with 3-card support is dependent on your game try methods; for some, after 1X-1M-2SM 2N is part of a 2-way game try mechanism, hence unavailable for shape showing so perforce the raise must be based on 4-card support.

Whether you rebid 1N or raise to 2 probably matters little over the long haul, as long as you are consistent and in agreement - either way you are limiting your hand - with one by showing a modicum of support and the other by showing a balanced minimum.

[Flame]

mike777, on Oct 28 2005, 01:50 AM, said:

Once the opp start bidding we have no idea if partner has 4 or 3 card support and hurts us in competitive bidding.

If he doesnt support you dont know if he got 0 or 1 or 2 or 3, is that really better ?
I think supporting with 3 will help you on competetive.

[inquiry]

cherdano, on Oct 28 2005, 08:08 PM, said:

I like to raise on three, although maybe not as consistent as Ben.

Support with support. What's so hard about that? :-)

there are hands that I will not raise with three card support, but not a lot of them.

[whereagles]

Well, 3 cards isn't support unless pard has 5 cards, that's the problem

[han]

mike777, on Oct 28 2005, 07:29 PM, said:

Well as I mentioned in my post but almost no one but Richard discussed....the opp bid and they bid alot...that is the big issue. Do we compete to the 3 level and if so in what suit at MP? Our minor fit our or major fit. The problem is not silent opp but busy opp.

Give us a good argument why partner should be better placed in competition when playing 4-card raises than when often raising on 3. It is not so clear to me.

Sure, if you bid 2M and this promises 4 then you are better placed, but when you have 3-card support then partner may not know to compete to the 3-level with a 6-card suit or with a shapely hand and a 5-card suit.

Add to this the fact that the opponents will often compete over 2M when it is wrong after a 3-card raise. All things considered, it isn't clear to me at all that 3-card raises work out worse when the opponents compete.

[Fluffy]

Hannie, on Oct 28 2005, 03:59 PM, said:

Both Fluffy's and Roland's replies in this thread seem rather ignorant to me. Roland says it is "right" to raise on 3-card support with K10x xx Axxxx AKx, while Fluffy suggests that someone who raises with 3 is not an expert. Open your eyes! There are world class players (and I mean world class players, not BBO WC) who use either approach, and with succes. Far more important than playing the "right" approach is having a clear agreement about this with partner.

I didn't say they aren't good, I just said I think they aren't. To me it doesn't matter much more. As if they were intermediates I'll try to avoid playing with them and leave teh table as quick as possible

[Winstonm]

It is not that it helps partner to know when to compete but makes it more difficult (and dangerous) for the opponents to compete - if the auction is 1D-P-1S-P-2S-P-P-? - it is a tough guess to balance if the opponents raise on 3-card support, although this probably matters more at matchpoints than imps.

[Kalvan14]

I'm a 3-cards raiser, with exceptions (I doubt that there is a consistent rule, anyway).
I almost never raise with 3 small, though, and usually I raise with 3 cards on a minimum hand only.
A good case should be made for preference to raise ♠ in any case, while a raise in ♥ has not the same pre-emptive value.
A last point: a 3-cards raise is ok playing a strong NT; playing a weak NT it is much more important to tell yr partner the general shape and strength of yr hand.

[mikestar]

I raise freely on three, but trump quality is of little importance--I use it as a tiebreaker if I'm otherwise on a guess. For me the decision for 3 card raise vs. 1NT on a balanced hand is based on the overall orientation of the hand toward suit or NT play--controlss argue for the raise, quacks argue for NT. A weak doubleton suggest the suit, Kx or Qx suggests NT, Ax is neutral.

[Kalvan14]

mikestar, on Oct 31 2005, 12:00 AM, said:

I raise freely on three, but trump quality is of little importance--I use it as a tiebreaker if I'm otherwise on a guess. For me the decision for 3 card raise vs. 1NT on a balanced hand is based on the overall orientation of the hand toward suit or NT play--controlss argue for the raise, quacks argue for NT. A weak doubleton suggest the suit, Kx or Qx suggests NT, Ax is neutral.

All true. OTOH, raising on 3 small cards can result in a horrible lead by pard, if oppos buy the hand.

[HeartA]

tysen2k, on Oct 28 2005, 11:31 AM, said:

I'm with free on this one. I occasionally raise on 3 cards, but not too often. If I have a 5332 or 4432 shape I almost always rebid NT.

That's my style as well.

[mikestar]

Kalvan14, on Oct 31 2005, 05:25 AM, said:

mikestar, on Oct 31 2005, 12:00 AM, said:

I raise freely on three, but trump quality is of little importance--I use it as a tiebreaker if I'm otherwise on a guess. For me the decision for 3 card raise vs. 1NT on a balanced hand is based on the overall orientation of the hand toward suit or NT play--controlss argue for the raise, quacks argue for NT. A weak doubleton suggest the suit, Kx or Qx suggests NT, Ax is neutral.

All true. OTOH, raising on 3 small cards can result in a horrible lead by pard, if oppos buy the hand.

So can the lead when partner has four small.

[Chamaco]

Kalvan14, on Oct 31 2005, 05:25 AM, said:

All true. OTOH, raising on 3 small cards can result in a horrible lead by pard, if oppos buy the hand.

Personally, the only worry I have about a 3 card raise with xxx is that in case of Moysian, there are less chances of a dummy reversal.

Sure, pard might blow a trick with the lead sometimes, but this applies to so many other situations (where we open/respond with terrible suits) that, IMO, it cannot be the main issue, provided the immediate raise eases the rest of the possible auctions.

All in all, when the hand is balanced, suits texture, controls, quacks, and tenaces are the main indicators I use for my choice.

[Kalvan14]

Chamaco, on Oct 31 2005, 03:25 AM, said:

Kalvan14, on Oct 31 2005, 05:25 AM, said:

All true. OTOH, raising on 3 small cards can result in a horrible lead by pard, if oppos buy the hand.

Personally, the only worry I have about a 3 card raise with xxx is that in case of Moysian, there are less chances of a dummy reversal.

Sure, pard might blow a trick with the lead sometimes, but this applies to so many other situations (where we open/respond with terrible suits) that, IMO, it cannot be the main issue, provided the immediate raise eases the rest of the possible auctions.

All in all, when the hand is balanced, suits texture, controls, quacks, and tenaces are the main indicators I use for my choice.

Quite true. OTOH, when you open a poor suit (or bid the classic 1m-1M with 8xxx), most of the times it is an action dictated by the system you play.
Here, you are already stretching a bit, since there is a 1N alternative: I would prefer not to stretch twice.